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<blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6869055" data-attributes="member: 6677017">I hope not to derail the thread from the request for example examples (my high level play has been limited and not recent, so I can't recall examples)...but, I do want to make on comment.I really, REALLY, like the sort of rock-paper-scissors / trump-card aspect of the game that these sorts of save discrepancies bring to it. It isn't unique to saves either. You have spells like forcecage that PCs are more likely to use than monsters, etc. You get a variety of situations where someone makes a choice and the successful consequences are almost (or even actually) guaranteed, and this is true for PCs and NPCs/Monsters alike. The thing is though, in 5e D&amp;D this generally only comes into play at high level when you have a variety of ways of dealing with it (probably the most important simply being that your character is part of a group, rather than a lone hero--this should also be true for the opponents, since 5e doesn't handle solos well).I think it's a gaming style thing. While the exact rules (insurmountable save DCs, etc) may not have been the same in prior editions, it definitely felt like there were similar auto-win/auto-lose elements in prior editions. To me, it feels a lot like the way the rarity and laissez-faire attitude towards magic item balance makes them seem more wondrous again in this edition compared to more recent editions. The question isn't whether this is a problem or is bad design--it is simply whether it is something you want to feature in your games. For me the answer is a resounding YES.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sword of Spirit, post: 6869055, member: 6677017"] I hope not to derail the thread from the request for example examples (my high level play has been limited and not recent, so I can't recall examples)...but, I do want to make on comment. I really, REALLY, like the sort of rock-paper-scissors / trump-card aspect of the game that these sorts of save discrepancies bring to it. It isn't unique to saves either. You have spells like [I]forcecage[/I] that PCs are more likely to use than monsters, etc. You get a variety of situations where someone makes a choice and the successful consequences are almost (or even actually) guaranteed, and this is true for PCs and NPCs/Monsters alike. The thing is though, in 5e D&D this generally only comes into play at high level when you have a variety of ways of dealing with it (probably the most important simply being that your character is part of a group, rather than a lone hero--this should also be true for the opponents, since 5e doesn't handle solos well). I think it's a gaming style thing. While the exact rules (insurmountable save DCs, etc) may not have been the same in prior editions, it definitely [I]felt[/I] like there were similar auto-win/auto-lose elements in prior editions. To me, it feels a lot like the way the rarity and laissez-faire attitude towards magic item balance makes them seem more wondrous again in this edition compared to more recent editions. The question isn't whether this is a problem or is bad design--it is simply whether it is something you want to feature in your games. For me the answer is a resounding YES. [/QUOTE]

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