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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 6872926" data-attributes="member: 6777737">By level 9, if your DM uses standard arrays and skips ASIs (-2) and skips racial bonuses (-1), NPC spellcasters are throwing around DC 14 spells (but they should be DC 16-17).  That's versus PC save bonuses of as little as -1, and likely you'll have +2 or less in three saves.  Low saves are likely to never improve, but spellcaster DCs are almost certain to reach DC 19.  And unlike armor, where any class can buy their way to endgame AC and be protected against physical attacks -- worst case with a 1 level dip in Life cleric -- you can't cover all the bases with saves ever even with a feat.Now, I'm fine with PCs failing saves at high level, because the game should have HP step in to protect them (which it largely does against direct attacks) so that no matter what a single attack (be it a spell or a physical attack) can wholly eliminate a single character, and high level casters should be terrifying.  However, having to guard six directions when you can only improve one or two to protect against end game threats (three with Resilient feat) is really pushing it.  And yeah, the game's saves are 35% Dex, 25% Con, 25% Wis, 5% Str, 5% Cha, 5% Int (or some similar distribution).  But most classes are still going to have two of the main saves as poor (+2 or less).Yes, at some point a Fighter's always going to hit, but HP scale faster than damage.  Yes, concentration is a major complication.  It's still a really concerning design because every character has this issue.There were 5 saves (usually, Poison/Paralyze/Death, Rod/Staff/Wand, Poly/Petrif, Breath, and Spells, with a fair amount of variance) and (critically!) they also all advanced as you gained levels no matter how bad you were starting out.  Not at the same rate, of course, but but by level 11 (endgame in my experience) every save was about 50% or better for every category for every class.And trust me, I get bounded accuracy.  I get that the spellcasters get better at spellcasting as they gain levels but a Fighter isn't spending time on his Wisdom saves.  I'm saying I don't like having six saves to try to keep up with.  No matter what the PCs do, they can never be good against magic.  Maybe that's a style of play that you like and that's fine, but it's still a significant departure from previous editions (4e excepted, thanks to treadmill math).</blockquote>

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