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<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 6876098" data-attributes="member: 23935">No, not really.&nbsp; If the player cannot count on some reliability with a save then all tactics must turn to denying the ability from occurring.&nbsp; 20% is at best a &quot;Hail Mary&quot; action you use once everything else has failed.&nbsp; I want the game system to offer higher-level characters about a 40% success base with the capacity for the player to drive that up to close to 80% with significant investment.&nbsp; The game doesn't even hit these targets in &quot;good&quot; save categories let alone weak saves.Well sure.&nbsp; It obviously makes it so in the base game, two thirds of your saves are crap including two-thirds of the &quot;important&quot; saves.&nbsp; All that means is the campaign/adventure designs are constrained in a different way.&nbsp; That doesn't make the design any better for those that don't like that philosophy.Don't know, didn't care.&nbsp; I opened the book to find an opponent in the CR 14-16 range to see a representative save DC and there it was.&nbsp; I'm sure if I cared to look, I'd be able to find some save-or-suck/save-or-defeat opponents.&nbsp; Heck, the CR 6 medusa has a petrify DC of 14.&nbsp; So a 20th level character with a weak Con save of +3 will instantly petrify 25% of the time, become restrained with a 50% chance of petrification at the end of its next turn another 25% of the time.&nbsp; Mind Flayers at CR 7 have a dominate monster effect at DC 15 for another example.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 6876098, member: 23935"] No, not really. If the player cannot count on some reliability with a save then all tactics must turn to denying the ability from occurring. 20% is at best a "Hail Mary" action you use once everything else has failed. I want the game system to offer higher-level characters about a 40% success base with the capacity for the player to drive that up to close to 80% with significant investment. The game doesn't even hit these targets in "good" save categories let alone weak saves. Well sure. It obviously makes it so in the base game, two thirds of your saves are crap including two-thirds of the "important" saves. All that means is the campaign/adventure designs are constrained in a different way. That doesn't make the design any better for those that don't like that philosophy. Don't know, didn't care. I opened the book to find an opponent in the CR 14-16 range to see a representative save DC and there it was. I'm sure if I cared to look, I'd be able to find some save-or-suck/save-or-defeat opponents. Heck, the CR 6 medusa has a petrify DC of 14. So a 20th level character with a weak Con save of +3 will instantly petrify 25% of the time, become restrained with a 50% chance of petrification at the end of its next turn another 25% of the time. Mind Flayers at CR 7 have a dominate monster effect at DC 15 for another example. [/QUOTE]

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