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<blockquote data-quote="AaronOfBarbaria" data-source="post: 6876138" data-attributes="member: 6701872">This is where I have problems with these sorts of discussions.You are meant to be making a persuasive argument for your point, and are unintentionally undermining yourself by not finding the most solid of examples. You say you are sure if you cared to look you'd find save-or-suck/save-or-defeat opponents... but if you don't care to look, then how would you ever prove I'm wrong when I say I don't think 5th edition has any?Even the medusa you mention - you leave out that anyone can choose to effectively auto-succeed at the save by choosing not to look at the medusa, and the petrification effect is nowhere near as dangerous to a 20th level character as you have indicated because of the increased likelihood of access to greater restoration (which is actually even available from level 1, if you use the DMG's treasure suggestions - it being a 5th level spell, 5th level spell scrolls being on Magic Item Table C, and a CR 0-4 treasure hoard possibly containing 1d4 items from Magic Item Table C).As for the mind flayer example... there are a lot of built-in mitigating factors, like having advantage on the save against that spell if you are an elf, or a gnome, or if you or your buddies are fighting it, or how the target repeats the save every time it takes damage, or that it is a concentration spell so giving the mind flayer a good smack can snap your buddy out of the effect.If it weren't relatively likely that the target actually fail that save to have the spell have some effect, would it even get used?Maybe if it were a save-or-defeat spell like it may have been in prior editions I might not find it perfectly acceptable that it's a little difficult to pass the save against it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AaronOfBarbaria, post: 6876138, member: 6701872"] This is where I have problems with these sorts of discussions. You are meant to be making a persuasive argument for your point, and are unintentionally undermining yourself by not finding the most solid of examples. You say you are sure if you cared to look you'd find save-or-suck/save-or-defeat opponents... but if you don't care to look, then how would you ever prove I'm wrong when I say I don't think 5th edition has any? Even the medusa you mention - you leave out that anyone can choose to effectively auto-succeed at the save by choosing not to look at the medusa, and the petrification effect is nowhere near as dangerous to a 20th level character as you have indicated because of the increased likelihood of access to [I]greater restoration[/I] (which is actually even available from level 1, if you use the DMG's treasure suggestions - it being a 5th level spell, 5th level spell scrolls being on Magic Item Table C, and a CR 0-4 treasure hoard possibly containing 1d4 items from Magic Item Table C). As for the mind flayer example... there are a lot of built-in mitigating factors, like having advantage on the save against that spell if you are an elf, or a gnome, or if you or your buddies are fighting it, or how the target repeats the save every time it takes damage, or that it is a concentration spell so giving the mind flayer a good smack can snap your buddy out of the effect. If it weren't relatively likely that the target actually fail that save to have the spell have some effect, would it even get used? Maybe if it were a save-or-defeat spell like it may have been in prior editions I might not find it perfectly acceptable that it's a little difficult to pass the save against it. [/QUOTE]

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