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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6880817" data-attributes="member: 996">It was a joke.&nbsp; I find them quite deadly - deadly-dull.&nbsp; ;P&nbsp; Seriously, though (somewhat seriously) they are the choice-poor, stereotypical 'simple for beginners' class.&nbsp; Each dragon that has a DC 19+ save-for-1/2 breath weapon also has a same-DC fear effect, for example.&nbsp; Then there's NPC and monster casters at those levels.3 ASI's split among 3 stats is a +1 mod in each stat.&nbsp; Hardly that significant.&nbsp; Of course, your class-relevant score could be DEX or WIS, and you likely /are/ proficient in one of those saves.&nbsp; Yep.&nbsp; But it's not like it's expected for everyone to do so, repeatedly, as a matter of course.&nbsp; I think part of it comes down to what level means.&nbsp; 5e seems to mostly be built around the idea that (except for hit points and basic combat), leveling means you get better at what you're good at, only.&nbsp; Past editions have made more concessions to the idea that you also get better at ancillary things, especially adventuring-related ones.&nbsp; It's not as big a criticism of 5e as this thread might make it out to be:&nbsp; a simple house rule or two (some have been briefly discussed, above), can shift the focus towards levels making you a better adventurer across the board, not just in terms of specialties and hit points.&nbsp; 5e's meant to be modded that way.&nbsp; Maybe a DMG module along those lines would've been nice.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6880817, member: 996"] It was a joke. I find them quite deadly - deadly-dull. ;P Seriously, though (somewhat seriously) they are the choice-poor, stereotypical 'simple for beginners' class. Each dragon that has a DC 19+ save-for-1/2 breath weapon also has a same-DC fear effect, for example. Then there's NPC and monster casters at those levels. 3 ASI's split among 3 stats is a +1 mod in each stat. Hardly that significant. Of course, your class-relevant score could be DEX or WIS, and you likely /are/ proficient in one of those saves. Yep. But it's not like it's expected for everyone to do so, repeatedly, as a matter of course. I think part of it comes down to what level means. 5e seems to mostly be built around the idea that (except for hit points and basic combat), leveling means you get better at what you're good at, only. Past editions have made more concessions to the idea that you also get better at ancillary things, especially adventuring-related ones. It's not as big a criticism of 5e as this thread might make it out to be: a simple house rule or two (some have been briefly discussed, above), can shift the focus towards levels making you a better adventurer across the board, not just in terms of specialties and hit points. 5e's meant to be modded that way. Maybe a DMG module along those lines would've been nice. [/QUOTE]

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