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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khisanth the Ancient" data-source="post: 6880960" data-attributes="member: 11368">Yeah, I can see that. OTOH a lot of 5E classes really do have a lot of stuff to juggle. Playing a Paladin, I kept forgetting that Channel Divinity even existed.Only the gold dragon.  The others have a lower fear DC, usually 2 or 3 points lower; more for the white dragon.I just printed out the monsters-by-CR chart and wrote down all the DCs for CR 15+ monsters since we were discussing it on this thread.The monster spellcasters do get high DCs ... at very high levels.--The spellcaster vampire (CR 15) is only DC 15. Mummy lord (CR 15 or 16 in lair) is DC 17. The planetar (CR 16) is a scary DC 20, but it's not as likely a foe for most PCs as the other two. The death knight and androsphinx are both CR 17, DC 18.The pit fiend (CR 20) is DC 21.The lich (CR 21 or 22 in lair) is DC 20. The solar (CR 21) is a terrifying DC 25... but again, a less likely foe.The empyrean (CR 23) is DC 23.--If there's a problem here, it's giving overly high DCs to the good creatures. The others seem pretty reasonable, with only the pit fiend borderline (CR 21+ creatures are supposed to be crazy hard).Yeah, I was taking that into account. Also, it's not so much the ASI by itself but the combined effects of ASIs and other benefits (racial advantage on certain saves, class features granting proficiency/advantage on certain saves, magic items like ring of evasion, ring of protection, or amulet of health, spells like bless...)Yeah, I agree that it is a change. I just think it's a change that works pretty well with 5E's other changes. I certainly see why others would dislike it, but I don't think it's an objectively wrong change - and it doesn't bother me personally.</blockquote>

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