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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5165999" data-attributes="member: 71571">Actually, I worked it out.Weapon/Weapon is obviously taken care of, as is Implement/Implement for hybrids.This leaves Weapon/Implement... but every Implement caster has weapons in one way or another.Artificer - StaffsBard - SongbladesCleric - Holy Symbol WeaponsDruid - StaffsInvoker - StaffsMonk - .....yeah.Paladin - Holy Symbol WeaponsPsion - StaffsShamans - Totemic weaponsSorcerer - Staffs and DaggersSwordmages - Light and Heavy BladesWarlock - Pact Blade/Hammer/SwordWizard - StaffsIf I left any out, please point it out.There literally is no class in the game that cannot use a weapon as an implement through one means or another.And the 'use a blah as a blah implement' weapons are generally good for that class anyways, and save you item slots if you're taking both types of powers... so they're generally considered the best for you.The question should actually be... is 'Do some people find Expertise fun?'The answer is yes.The idea of the feat being a math fix only occurs if you overanalyze the game; joe blow gamer doesn't.  He just wants to smash evil.  And -many- players have found options to give them bonuses to hit to be fun.  It'd be a feat in demand even if they did NOT have the math 'disparity.'I cannot call an option that makes the game more fun for players to be a 'failure'.[quoteWotC made a mistake in the math.</blockquote>My position is, and always has been, that they didn't fail at the math, but the analyzers stopped at 'the relative to hit to AC doesn't go up so much so math fail' and that it is incomplete, and therefore, poor analysis.It's similiar to how, yes, monsters get more accurate relative to your AC at higher levels.  What doesn't get taken into account with that, however, is that the damage they deal at higher levels gets smaller and smaller and smaller, which means the threat of those attacks actually -worsens- at high level play, not increases.  But, it was an issue in the eyes of some players who actually bothered to look, and they decided there was room to address that issue for those players, while also addressing the issue of hot having feats that flat out boost attack bonus.To summarize:The feat IS a fun option for certain players.  It makes the attack bonus scale better for players who don't have time for a full analysis (to be honest, I think this is beyond the scope of the vast majority of players' capabilities).  It reduces frustration in terms of misses.I don't guage success by how it makes 'the math' feel in some intellectual domain that resides in the back of a mathemetician's mind. I guage success by how it makes Tommy and Brenda at my table smile more often.That's the only measuring stick that counts for me.[/QUOTE]

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