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<blockquote data-quote="tiornys" data-source="post: 5166345" data-attributes="member: 17633">Despite the impressively comprehensive list there, many hybrid archetypes are still entirely lacking options to use an applicable weapon as an implement.&nbsp; Any bow/crossbow wielder mixed with any non-holy symbol class has nothing, and in many cases can't even downgrade to a thrown weapon of some kind to compensate.&nbsp; Archer Ranger|Invoker is an example of a very viable combination where Versatile Expertise works but Focused Expertise would not.Basically, Versatile Expertise does correctly what Focused Expertise tried but failed to do:&nbsp; allow any weapon + implement using character to gain &quot;appropriate&quot; to-hit bonuses with a single feat.I might buy that argument if not for the existence of masterwork armor.&nbsp; Why is player AC vs. monster hit rate so special compared with player NAD vs. monster hit rate or player hit rate vs. monster defenses?&nbsp; I could try to come up with a reasonable explanation for that, or I could look for an explanation for why the devs noticed the problem for player AC and otherwise missed it.&nbsp; Since masterwork heavy armor would have been necessary regardless (to keep heavy armor competitive with light armor + stat), I can easily see how the devs could have stumbled over the player AC vs. monster issue (while fixing heavy vs. light armors) but missed the related scaling issues.When I combine that insight with the facts that Expertise violates initial design precepts and that at least one designer is on public record as giving Expertise feats away for free in his games, I find it much simpler to believe that Expertise is a math fix presented in a form that lends itself to wide dissemination than to believe that the devs would allow a feat that is both dramatically above the power curve and in violation of design intent simply to placate a small, vocal minority of gamers (or to make money, or for other similar reasons).These are the reasons I find the effect of Expertise to be beneficial.&nbsp; I just strongly dislike that it exists in the form of a feat.t~</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tiornys, post: 5166345, member: 17633"] Despite the impressively comprehensive list there, many hybrid archetypes are still entirely lacking options to use an applicable weapon as an implement. Any bow/crossbow wielder mixed with any non-holy symbol class has nothing, and in many cases can't even downgrade to a thrown weapon of some kind to compensate. Archer Ranger|Invoker is an example of a very viable combination where Versatile Expertise works but Focused Expertise would not. Basically, Versatile Expertise does correctly what Focused Expertise tried but failed to do: allow any weapon + implement using character to gain "appropriate" to-hit bonuses with a single feat. I might buy that argument if not for the existence of masterwork armor. Why is player AC vs. monster hit rate so special compared with player NAD vs. monster hit rate or player hit rate vs. monster defenses? I could try to come up with a reasonable explanation for that, or I could look for an explanation for why the devs noticed the problem for player AC and otherwise missed it. Since masterwork heavy armor would have been necessary regardless (to keep heavy armor competitive with light armor + stat), I can easily see how the devs could have stumbled over the player AC vs. monster issue (while fixing heavy vs. light armors) but missed the related scaling issues. When I combine that insight with the facts that Expertise violates initial design precepts and that at least one designer is on public record as giving Expertise feats away for free in his games, I find it much simpler to believe that Expertise is a math fix presented in a form that lends itself to wide dissemination than to believe that the devs would allow a feat that is both dramatically above the power curve and in violation of design intent simply to placate a small, vocal minority of gamers (or to make money, or for other similar reasons). These are the reasons I find the effect of Expertise to be beneficial. I just strongly dislike that it exists in the form of a feat. t~ [/QUOTE]

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