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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 4966199" data-attributes="member: 82106">Yes, it is all coming back to me now. The 2e weapon speed system was preposterous. Kzach, you can poopoo SCA style rattan fighting techniques if you want, but observe. The weapons are historically accurate in weight, size, and balance. Experience with this style of fighting may not be exactly the same as the real thing, but consider that very similar training techniques were used historically to train warriors, so I have to question exactly how unrealistic they are. Boffers are a whole other story and have very little to do with any kind of realism, but then again nobody who's handled period weapons or fought with rattan ones would claim otherwise.Reach is a huge advantage in real world fighting. There is a VERY high probability, verging on 100% that any attack by someone wielding a dagger or shortsword is going to take a blow while attempting to close. The real issue is you can't STOP it. What are you going to do, parry my swordthrust with your knife which is 1/5th its length? Even if you manage to do that without being forced back a 2-hander is easily fast enough to cut you again before you get close enough and in the process of making that riposte I've also stepped back and/or driven you back. Remember too, I have 2 hands on my weapon, which means I have twice the muscle power to move it around with and several times the leverage. The tip speed of my weapon is 6-8 times higher than yours. The fact is a longer reach weapon, particularly a sword which is an especially wieldy weapon, will win out 9 out of 10 times in such a matchup. It will probably win 8 out of 10 times against a longsword. Usually the fight will last 3 seconds. Now, throw in a shield for your guy with his short weapon and things are MUCH more even, but you still have the problem of trying to actually get the longer weapon user to stay close. Barring some terrain which stops them from simply backing, circling, or using an en-passant attack you basically have to just force them to keep beating on your shield while you hold out for that chance to get inside. A skilled fighter can do it and I've seen some very good sword and buckler fighters, but still all other things being equal the longer weapon wins hands down.Smaller weapons were cheaper, easier to make, easy to conceal, worked well in situations where there was limited space, etc. In open melee skirmish type combat similar to what D&D depicts they would be mostly inferior weapons. One of the main reasons they were ubiquitous wasn't their quality as a weapon, it was the fact that a knife was simply a common implement carried by almost anyone at all times. Thus you simply HAD one handy and its a heck of a lot better than nothing if you get attacked and a perfectly deadly weapon if you can attack with surprise or in a restricted space like indoors. Anyway. To get back to the original topic, I think things like weapon speed factors or maybe more usefully weapon reaches in theory are something you really need to factor into any realistic combat system, but the detail level of the 4e combat system isn't really high enough to make it worthwhile. Beyond that so many huge inaccuracies already exist in the 4e combat system that tacking on one realistic factor atop that really won't make sense. First you'd have to ditch most of the weapons in 4e and introduce accurate versions. Then you'd have to do a lot of other stuff. It probably wouldn't be as fun a game either. 4e ignores a lot of the distinctions between weapons and amplifies others simply so they can all interestingly be used together in one context. Realistically most of the weapons portrayed would simply be inappropriate in many cases and there would be just a few really good choices for any situation. A "realistic" fighter probably would have a variety of weapons at his disposal to use as appropriate vs the "I always use my big sword" kind of thing that the game promotes.</blockquote>

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