Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Weighing in on 5e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5703687" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, here's the problem Keterys (and pretty much everyone that has commented on this has made the same mistake). There is a VERY significant difference between skills and attacks.</p><p></p><p>When you make attacks you pretty much always have choices (there are a few cases where you don't and basically the same problem comes up, which would be with OAs). Nobody makes an attack with an off stat, a weapon/implement they don't get all kinds of goodies for, etc. You have pretty much every choice there being relatively optimized. So you are always getting something like (at level 1) +3-5 for ability score, plus 2-3 for proficiency (for weapon attacks), and often an expertise and/or class feature bonus. Nobody makes an attack at less than +5 (+3 for implement) and usually it is more like +7/+5. </p><p></p><p>Now, compare this with skills. OFTEN (and this is especially the case if using the skill in combat as an 'attack') you don't get to choose anything. You are using whatever random skill it is that is required in that situation. Thus you have the full range of possibilities, from -5 all the way on up to +17 or something for super optimized. You don't get to decide to only use a GOOD skill, so these bad numbers DO matter. For attacks the bad numbers are irrelevant, no wizard whacks at things using an MBA with his staff and attacking AC at a pathetic +2 (best case, it is of course MUCH worse at higher levels, especially if the attack isn't with your enhanced item). There's simply no point in wasting actions like that, except the OA that is already complained about a whole lot and has a special patch feat that sort of fixes some of the problem.</p><p></p><p>Thus THERE IS NO SUCH THING and NEVER WILL BE such a thing as bringing attack and skill numbers into line. It is conceptually impossible. You will always have those cases where you have a horrible skill bonus, and have to use that skill. There will virtually never be such a case with attacks. The ACTUAL math behind the two things is really not that far off. The EFFECTIVE math is permanently off. The only 'solutions' are worse than the problem (basically make the skill system such that there's never any real meaningful difference between PCs in skill bonus, which makes the whole system pointless). </p><p></p><p>Even making tighter skill bonus by whatever means doesn't solve it. Klutzy the paladin with a -5 Acrobatics isn't going away. Even if Speedy Gonzales the rogue with 20 DEX only has a total of a +7 and that's the best you can do at 1st level there's a 12 point spread, and that doesn't leave a heck of a lot of options in the system since it would mean getting rid of ALL ways to push your skill bonus except ability score and a bunch of non-stackable +2s. You don't even have room for a training bonus high enough to be worth spending a feat on. Clearly there are ways to redesign stuff to get things down to that level and still have meaningful options, but that only gets you to the 12 point spread, which is still FAR more than the general 2-3 point max spread for attacks. The twain shall never meet.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5703687, member: 82106"] Well, here's the problem Keterys (and pretty much everyone that has commented on this has made the same mistake). There is a VERY significant difference between skills and attacks. When you make attacks you pretty much always have choices (there are a few cases where you don't and basically the same problem comes up, which would be with OAs). Nobody makes an attack with an off stat, a weapon/implement they don't get all kinds of goodies for, etc. You have pretty much every choice there being relatively optimized. So you are always getting something like (at level 1) +3-5 for ability score, plus 2-3 for proficiency (for weapon attacks), and often an expertise and/or class feature bonus. Nobody makes an attack at less than +5 (+3 for implement) and usually it is more like +7/+5. Now, compare this with skills. OFTEN (and this is especially the case if using the skill in combat as an 'attack') you don't get to choose anything. You are using whatever random skill it is that is required in that situation. Thus you have the full range of possibilities, from -5 all the way on up to +17 or something for super optimized. You don't get to decide to only use a GOOD skill, so these bad numbers DO matter. For attacks the bad numbers are irrelevant, no wizard whacks at things using an MBA with his staff and attacking AC at a pathetic +2 (best case, it is of course MUCH worse at higher levels, especially if the attack isn't with your enhanced item). There's simply no point in wasting actions like that, except the OA that is already complained about a whole lot and has a special patch feat that sort of fixes some of the problem. Thus THERE IS NO SUCH THING and NEVER WILL BE such a thing as bringing attack and skill numbers into line. It is conceptually impossible. You will always have those cases where you have a horrible skill bonus, and have to use that skill. There will virtually never be such a case with attacks. The ACTUAL math behind the two things is really not that far off. The EFFECTIVE math is permanently off. The only 'solutions' are worse than the problem (basically make the skill system such that there's never any real meaningful difference between PCs in skill bonus, which makes the whole system pointless). Even making tighter skill bonus by whatever means doesn't solve it. Klutzy the paladin with a -5 Acrobatics isn't going away. Even if Speedy Gonzales the rogue with 20 DEX only has a total of a +7 and that's the best you can do at 1st level there's a 12 point spread, and that doesn't leave a heck of a lot of options in the system since it would mean getting rid of ALL ways to push your skill bonus except ability score and a bunch of non-stackable +2s. You don't even have room for a training bonus high enough to be worth spending a feat on. Clearly there are ways to redesign stuff to get things down to that level and still have meaningful options, but that only gets you to the 12 point spread, which is still FAR more than the general 2-3 point max spread for attacks. The twain shall never meet. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Weighing in on 5e
Top