Weird ECL question

[Anthelios]

I'm looking to construct a beholder or gauth into a beholder mage (Lords of Madness prestige class). Does anyone have an idea of the LA of these two beholders? I know the eye rays are powerful, and even by removing them for the beholder mage PrC they will still be powerful, but this is being constructed for a very high level epic game.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Anthelios]

Scratch the gauth, rereading the PrC they must be true beholders and have an anti-magic eye to put out, so only the beholder fits the bill.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Any thoughts are appreciated.

It's not just that they're powerful, they're dead useful.

OTOH, you want to consider that it has no real manipulators, its weird physiology that will make itemization entertaining, and that it's going to look really, really weird.

I'd suggest HD +8 or thereabouts for ECL.

Brad

 

[darthkilmor]

Any thoughts are appreciated.

I'd guess somewhere around LA +6 to +10

 

[Wolfwood2]

I'm looking to construct a beholder or gauth into a beholder mage (Lords of Madness prestige class). Does anyone have an idea of the LA of these two beholders? I know the eye rays are powerful, and even by removing them for the beholder mage PrC they will still be powerful, but this is being constructed for a very high level epic game.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Are you starting out as a full Beholder Mage? If so, that is where to start. There's no point in figuring the LA costs of things you no longer have.

Can you remind us of what a Beholder Mage has? I believe they cast like a 20th level wizard and they lose their anti-magic ray, but I don't recall if they keep their other eye rays. Don't pay LA for eye rays you don't have.

 

[darthkilmor]

Are you starting out as a full Beholder Mage? If so, that is where to start. There's no point in figuring the LA costs of things you no longer have.

Can you remind us of what a Beholder Mage has? I believe they cast like a 20th level wizard and they lose their anti-magic ray, but I don't recall if they keep their other eye rays. Don't pay LA for eye rays you don't have.

They sacrifice eye rays to cast spells.

I dont think you should consider dropping the LA just because you don't use your eye stalks as normal. Would you drop the LA of a creature with a huge con bonus if you were making a lich character? After all, the lich can't use the con bonus right ?

You still use them to cast spells, so you can still 'cast' ten things a round. You just can't do it at will.

 

[Wolfwood2]

They sacrifice eye rays to cast spells.

I dont think you should consider dropping the LA just because you don't use your eye stalks as normal. Would you drop the LA of a creature with a huge con bonus if you were making a lich character? After all, the lich can't use the con bonus right ?

Yes. Yes I would. The same way I would drop LA for a drow who didn't have spell resistance.

The goal here is fairness and roughly balancing the power between player characters, not trying to be "technically" correct according to the rules. If something gives a character an advantage, they should pay for it. If it doesn't, they don't.

You still use them to cast spells, so you can still 'cast' ten things a round. You just can't do it at will.

Then the LA should be based off of the ability to cast ten things a round. Or.... let me put it this way.

I consider a Beholder Mage to be a fundamentally different monster from a Beholder. Each should be judged on its merits, just as an Ogre Magi and a Ogre have different level adjustments.