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<blockquote data-quote="william_nova" data-source="post: 4250107" data-attributes="member: 61015"><p>By "non dummied down" I'm guessing you want more complexity, and by "more options" I'm guessing you mean "more rules," which is precisely the thing that inhibits role playing. Anybody who has seen the Forge inspired indie stuff knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those games are always very light on rules, yet heavy on story and role play.</p><p></p><p>On the other extreme, you could try role playing in Champions or some other variant of Hero, that is, if you could ever get the nerds to stop arguing about the rules and put their damned calculators and spreadsheets and character generator computer programs away long enough to actually play. Or stop arguing with the GM about just what kind of world they want to simulate.</p><p></p><p>I think like it or not, heavy rules crunch brings out the grognard in all of us, even those of us who swear to God we are not. We all are, I think. We wouldn't be playing RPGs if we didn't all have some of that mentality at the core. I think it's best not to encourage our inner grognard by tempting it with layers of rules that are in the end, just more attempts at lame simulation of "reality" and have nothing to do with having fun; unless having fun is like my old game buddy who rolled up character after character for hours on end, min maxing and trying to find the "win" strategy. He did this under 1e and 2e, and he was the biggest proponent of 3e I personally knew. But if you got him away from his OCD like obsession with rules lawyering he was a good roleplayer. He just needed to have his inner grognard trimmed down a bit. </p><p></p><p>Personally I think WotC has trimmed down the fat, and the inner grognard in all of us can and should be a bit uneasy, but ready to make the leap.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="william_nova, post: 4250107, member: 61015"] By "non dummied down" I'm guessing you want more complexity, and by "more options" I'm guessing you mean "more rules," which is precisely the thing that inhibits role playing. Anybody who has seen the Forge inspired indie stuff knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those games are always very light on rules, yet heavy on story and role play. On the other extreme, you could try role playing in Champions or some other variant of Hero, that is, if you could ever get the nerds to stop arguing about the rules and put their damned calculators and spreadsheets and character generator computer programs away long enough to actually play. Or stop arguing with the GM about just what kind of world they want to simulate. I think like it or not, heavy rules crunch brings out the grognard in all of us, even those of us who swear to God we are not. We all are, I think. We wouldn't be playing RPGs if we didn't all have some of that mentality at the core. I think it's best not to encourage our inner grognard by tempting it with layers of rules that are in the end, just more attempts at lame simulation of "reality" and have nothing to do with having fun; unless having fun is like my old game buddy who rolled up character after character for hours on end, min maxing and trying to find the "win" strategy. He did this under 1e and 2e, and he was the biggest proponent of 3e I personally knew. But if you got him away from his OCD like obsession with rules lawyering he was a good roleplayer. He just needed to have his inner grognard trimmed down a bit. Personally I think WotC has trimmed down the fat, and the inner grognard in all of us can and should be a bit uneasy, but ready to make the leap. [/QUOTE]
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