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<blockquote data-quote="phloog" data-source="post: 4250621" data-attributes="member: 59219"><p>Just my thoughts on a few of Oakhearts points:</p><p></p><p>"What are these supposed to do? If given the choice between a feat that gives you +2 damage with all your attacks or one that gives you the ability to say "I was a farmer when I was young, so I can till fields.", a large majority of players will choose the damage one (SNIP #1)"</p><p></p><p>Agreed...I'm fine with a system that lets you 'handwave' backgrounds to some extent, but then how do you know how good the ex-farmer is at evaluating turnips - I am therefore more in favor of a system that allows a roll for background skills...if I'm a woodcarving counterfeiter, I need rules for how well I can create a fake seal for my forged document.</p><p></p><p>"Here's where we get into...what game effect does making an illusion of a chair have? If you make yourself look like the King and create an illusionary retinue does that mean you can convince the local lord to give you control of his army and give you all his magic items?"</p><p></p><p>I snipped some of your examples, but is your argument that a wizard should be incapable of making an illusionary chair because it's hard to adjudicate? And why shouldn't my wizard have at least some CHANCE convince a local lord? (EDIT: This applies more to the enchantment than illusions - sorry) I think that you're creating a false issue based on a HORRIBLE DMing example...does this lord not have faithful servants who would attempt to stop him/you? Would they not try to snap him out of it? Would he not get more saves and bonuses to those saves as you attempt to force him to do the ludicrous things? Would there not be potentially a military rebellion by those who realize the lord's will has been compromised? To me what you're citing as an instant and overpowered end to an adventure is the beginning of more trouble for the party.</p><p></p><p>"If that isn't complicated enough to try to adjudicate as a DM then we'll go back to a game balance standpoint. The wizard can summon an illusionary army out of thin air in order to scare away the 200 orcs..."</p><p></p><p>I guess I'm not seeing this as a problem...would all 200 fail their saves? If not, would the fighter not be required to dispatch those who made the saves? At what level can a wizard (even in 3e) create the illusion of an army that would instantly crush 200 orcs? Wouldn't some be dumb enough to fight the army, and thus gain new saves?</p><p> </p><p>"On to enchantments...they have a similar problem to illusions. If you can charm the local lord you can convince him to do almost anything."</p><p></p><p>(See notes on the military above)</p><p></p><p>"Knowledge spells completely negate the usefulness of skills. " </p><p></p><p>No. Absolutely not. Knowledge spells do some harm to the usefulness of skills...however, I have never seen an occasion where a WIZARD player says 'I'll not take an extra [damaging spell] so I can take this other spell that does what another character can already do with a skill'...they don't want to waste the memorized slot. For SORCERERs maybe it's different, but I've never seen a sorcerer use their rare known spell slots on a spell that lets them ride a horse well or find traps...it's rare enough for them to even take spells that add to hiding.</p><p></p><p>This is a good discussion, I just don't know if I've gone too far off topic here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="phloog, post: 4250621, member: 59219"] Just my thoughts on a few of Oakhearts points: "What are these supposed to do? If given the choice between a feat that gives you +2 damage with all your attacks or one that gives you the ability to say "I was a farmer when I was young, so I can till fields.", a large majority of players will choose the damage one (SNIP #1)" Agreed...I'm fine with a system that lets you 'handwave' backgrounds to some extent, but then how do you know how good the ex-farmer is at evaluating turnips - I am therefore more in favor of a system that allows a roll for background skills...if I'm a woodcarving counterfeiter, I need rules for how well I can create a fake seal for my forged document. "Here's where we get into...what game effect does making an illusion of a chair have? If you make yourself look like the King and create an illusionary retinue does that mean you can convince the local lord to give you control of his army and give you all his magic items?" I snipped some of your examples, but is your argument that a wizard should be incapable of making an illusionary chair because it's hard to adjudicate? And why shouldn't my wizard have at least some CHANCE convince a local lord? (EDIT: This applies more to the enchantment than illusions - sorry) I think that you're creating a false issue based on a HORRIBLE DMing example...does this lord not have faithful servants who would attempt to stop him/you? Would they not try to snap him out of it? Would he not get more saves and bonuses to those saves as you attempt to force him to do the ludicrous things? Would there not be potentially a military rebellion by those who realize the lord's will has been compromised? To me what you're citing as an instant and overpowered end to an adventure is the beginning of more trouble for the party. "If that isn't complicated enough to try to adjudicate as a DM then we'll go back to a game balance standpoint. The wizard can summon an illusionary army out of thin air in order to scare away the 200 orcs..." I guess I'm not seeing this as a problem...would all 200 fail their saves? If not, would the fighter not be required to dispatch those who made the saves? At what level can a wizard (even in 3e) create the illusion of an army that would instantly crush 200 orcs? Wouldn't some be dumb enough to fight the army, and thus gain new saves? "On to enchantments...they have a similar problem to illusions. If you can charm the local lord you can convince him to do almost anything." (See notes on the military above) "Knowledge spells completely negate the usefulness of skills. " No. Absolutely not. Knowledge spells do some harm to the usefulness of skills...however, I have never seen an occasion where a WIZARD player says 'I'll not take an extra [damaging spell] so I can take this other spell that does what another character can already do with a skill'...they don't want to waste the memorized slot. For SORCERERs maybe it's different, but I've never seen a sorcerer use their rare known spell slots on a spell that lets them ride a horse well or find traps...it's rare enough for them to even take spells that add to hiding. This is a good discussion, I just don't know if I've gone too far off topic here. [/QUOTE]
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