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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zalgarde" data-source="post: 4260685" data-attributes="member: 67663">Jeffh's stuff about roleplaying really hit home,  I hadn't thought about it too much, but I almost feel like I suddenly feel less comfy with 3e than I did a few minutes ago, and still uncomfy with 4e.3rd ed saw us doing all SORTS of tactical actions waaay smarter than our characters just because our characters GOT all those feats (or well maybe some of us worked our way to having them).  "If my fighter has power attack, combat reflexes and knockdown, wouldn't he know when to use them?" was actually said at some point.  And none of EVER thought to say "uhh no, just be cause he spent all day knocking over combat dummies on pullies doesn't mean he's an expert tactician when the goblins rush"  and maybe its because we each had our respective "knockdowns" and "power attacks" that we liked using.  Obviously we all had fun, but I think maybe we (my group that is to say) DID get further away from the role playing than in earlier editions.  I remember making the dm stop the game while I figured out cool ways to use burning hand s, but thats because characters int was 17 (17!)  he's supposed to have all the answers and tricks, so I'd even ask my friends how they would do it.   And we definitely used to say "wait not what I just said, that sounds retarded, can I make a wisdom check? I know my characters better than that" a LOT more.I don't know if 4e fixes this stuff, but on the other hand, by not covering it, I think they leave it more open to fixing.  Its a lot harder to convince newcomers to your group, or even your long time friends to "ignore chapter 7, they did it horribly, even though none of us have played this system yet", than it is to say "here's this packet of rules and  noncombat stuff you get in addition to the stuff in the book, since they didn't cover it".Again its all just my group and I, though, and since I've never managed to juggle more groups or hit events, I'm living in a tiny little self contained RPG vaccuum for the most part.</blockquote>

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