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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7713435" data-attributes="member: 37579">There's no need for incivility. If you can't conduct this discussion politely then, yes, you probably should give up.Organization vs a brand… *shrug*. Technically true but largely irrelevant to the analogy and the point. D&D/the NFL can go away and RPGs/ gridiron football will remain. Yes. That is pretty much exactly what I said, phrased ever so slightly differently.You didn't initially clarify US or World "football" so I included FIFA. As not everyone "here" is in the USA. As a point of fact, the owner of the site is British, so arguably football for ENWorld would be of the "soccer" variety. Which is your opinion. The game itself is close to identical. You have two teams of players divided between offensive and defensive factions trying to get an ovoid ball across the goal line. Scoring is the same and the basics of play are the same. It's just the expression and implementation of the game that varies.Just like it's still football if it's being done by a group of a dozen kids in a playground with a Nerf ball who aren't switching between offensive and defensive and are touching rather than tackling. This distinction is even fuzzier for D&D. So, the question is, when does Neverwinter cease to become D&D?Is it just playing on the computer rather than at a table? That can't be it. Otherwise playing on a Virtual Tabletop would also not count as D&D. Is it that the rules are resolved automatically? Then using a platform like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 with some automation also wouldn't be playing D&D, which seems silly/ arbitrary. Given the above, what if we change from a VTT to multiple players running a scenario in Neverwinter Nights? That uses rules almost identical to the tabletop game. Is that D&D? Now, what if the above adventure was created on the toolset by a DM who is also online? At that point, NWN is just a very automated VTT.What if there's just one player then? You can play one-on-one games in meatspace just fine and that's D&D. So that's not a factor. Now, imagine if that DM was efficient and pre-generated everything - anticipating the player's actions - and doesn't have to create anything or interact. The DM is just watching. Does it cease to be D&D just because the DM is more static? If the above is "no", then why does the DM have to be there at all? Is the difference between D&D *really* just a breathing person told they're the DM? Does it still count if they're on their smartphone? Asleep? If we accept that the DM doesn't need to be there, then playing any downloaded module counts. And the difference can't be that the DM created the adventure explicitly for the player, as that would mean running any pregenerated module isn't D&D. If the line is "no DM" are you no longer playing the game if the DM runs off to the bathroom but everyone keeps roleplaying? What if the DM is checking the rules, zones out, or is distracted by Twitter? How about in a PvP situation where the DM isn't active? I've had some situations where a PC died so I let that player run the monsters instead. Did we suddenly stop playing D&D when I, as the DM, was no longer engaging at the table?All this is ignoring options for DM-less play, like the one in the DMG. It's very possible to play D&D without a Dungeon Master. You're literally playing using the rules in the book, so it *has* to be D&D. I think we can safely conclude that the presence or absence or the DM doesn't matter. So, what about the group then? I've already mentioned one-on-one games, so why not just one player? It's been remarked that you can run the adventures in Dungeon Delve for 4e without a DM, and if you have enough time and brainpower a single player can run all the characters & monsters. There can't be plot surprises or twists but you can run combats very easily. Which is still playing D&D. At this point, we can make a case that you're "playing D&D" if you're using the same rules as a tabletop version of the game, either physically or digitally, either alone or with a group. Does it cease to be D&D if the rules change? That can't be the case as 3rd Edition is radically different from 1st Edition and both are still D&D. Even clarifying that it's adherence to the rules of the tabletop game means that Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights are D&D while a game on the tabletop that employs numerous house rules is not. I suppose we could get very technical and say the absence of a tabletop, virtual or otherwise, is the dividing factor between D&D and non-D&D. But… what about people who don't use a tabletop for their tabletop RPGs? People who play theater of the mind? I spent the first decade of my D&D play hanging around couches while gaming and only owned minis for the battle game. Also, if the distinction is "tabletop" wouldn't that mean the board game is also D&D. What's the difference? Is it roleplaying, because literally nothing stops you speaking in character while running through a game of Wrath of Ashadalon. And many MMOs have roleplaying servers, and it's pretty easy to RP in one. And, of course, not every group actually roleplays in the TTRPG...Logically, how is playing the MMO Neverwinter not also playing a flavour D&D?</blockquote>

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