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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreyLord" data-source="post: 5539623" data-attributes="member: 4348">I'm going to go against the flow here and say, no, I actually think the higher damage and lower AC of Monsters MM3 and beyond is a detraction for players.I've run into many groups where new players get turned off because they get a TPK in the first encounter in 4e...either with the first module in the starter kit, or otherwise.Most of this is because they also have an inexperienced DM as well...who has no idea about tuning something a little down if it's too hard for the party...but I think it reflects why people think MM1 monsters were not that tough whilst MM3 are.It isn't so much that the Heroic tier MM1 monsters are more balanced than Paragon...or that MM1 monsters are so less optimized than MM3...as much as players learned better how to micormanage their powers and abilities.  MM1 monsters are more catered towards those players that haven't crunched the numbers, that aren't coordinated to work seamlessly as a team, and aren't super educated on what Monsters have what abilities vs. what their characters are...aka...system experts.By the time a group hits Paragon they hopefully are starting to learn the system pretty well...and hopefully the group is working better together.  By the time MM3 came out, hopefully the experienced players could do a cakewalk over what would be a difficult encounter for new players.A decent DM could change this (as they could with any system) and instead of a single Hill giant...toss 3 Hill Giants against them...3 times the chance to hit...with the possibility of 3d10+15 dmg per round.With the original MM1 I've TPK'd several groups in Paragon, but the secret typically was to USE A LOT OF MINIONS...Vampire spawn were great undead minions for low level Paragons to deal with...etc.This increases the number of hit chances the enemy gets while not increasing XP so dramatically as you would with a normal enemy...and with the right tactics you can avoid them getting hit with one giant minion killer.On the otherhand, using these same tactics with the MM3 will cause a party to get TPK'd a LOT more.  In that light, you'd have to have a group that gel'd well and had good system knowledge to face that.I don't think the monsters in MM1 were particularly underpowered...more as it depends on what type of party and who you play with determines whether MM1 monsters were underpowered...or MM3 monsters are overpowered.Most of the time it starts to become more obvious to a group that MM1 monsters are underpowered by Paragon or Epic simply because their knowledge of what works and what doesn't is good enough to start showing the MM1 weaknesses.  However, prior to that transition, I'd say MM3 monsters can actually be TOO hard for them in many circumstances.In short...I suppose that means I agree MM1 monsters are underpowered, at least for most who would have the time to come to the boards...but I'll say it with great reservations...with the same double back that MM3 monsters are okay for those that come to the boards, but in some instances may overdo it, especially for those new to the game.</blockquote>

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