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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6308703" data-attributes="member: 82106">I played an awful lot of AD&D, 20 years of it, and a lot of 4e. I don't really see it. If you wish to make a cleric with say a high WIS and a high INT and focus on rituals and buffs/debuffs you can do it. In fact you could make a pacifist that makes almost no attacks. In both 4e and 2e your character WILL be competent with a weapon, at least at low levels, you can't change that in either system. Of course in either one you can ignore weapons and be relatively ineffective with them, especially at high levels, but I don't see that as unique to either system.In fact with 4e it is actually EASIER to make truly supportive non-combat characters in the leader role than in 2e. The weird thing with the 2e character is, you can transmogrify him in 24 hours into a combat dreadnaught just by changing his spell selection and equipment. The 4e character is much more tied to feat choices that can't easily be undone. 4e can do a LOT of off-label types of characters. You can do a sneaky fighter for instance, or a smart 'brain' rogue for instance. You could mix ritual casting into ANY of those concepts to create for instance the 'guild thief' that plays the support role for a team of high end burglars, etc. 2e lacks even the basic rules systems to build on for this kind of thing. Obviously you COULD design kits to cover each concept but kits are quite narrow and you literally have to create one for each new concept. The 4e classes are vastly more flexible. This is what lead to 3e and its free-for-all of MCing.This was also what makes 4e able to tie specific classes to specific roles. You just don't HAVE to be a certain class in 4e to fill a specific concept. If you want to be a 'warrior' that is a striker you can pick from many different martial/weapon-using striker classes and build from there what you want. Its very tricky when you start talking about what a given 4e class can and cannot do because you really have to compare each SYSTEM in total.</blockquote>

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