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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6308771" data-attributes="member: 87792">And then you're taking -2 to hit the person who's&nbsp; not a fighter,&nbsp; meaning that they are about as hard to hit and the&nbsp; fighter isn't that much tougher than whoever you're actually attacking.In&nbsp; terms of approximate value, squishies (Wizards, Sorcerors, Invokers)&nbsp;&nbsp; get 4hp/level, strikers and leaders get 5hp/level, and Defenders get&nbsp;&nbsp; 6hp/level.&nbsp; (There are exceptions - for example the warden gets 7).&nbsp; A&nbsp;&nbsp; level 1 squishy has an AC of 13-16, a striker or leader 16-17, and a&nbsp;&nbsp; defender 17-20.&nbsp; Martial characters (except the PHB Ranger and&nbsp; Warlord (and&nbsp; Executioner)) all get +1 to attack one way or another over&nbsp; non-martial&nbsp; characters, although the fighter can trade this out for a&nbsp; couple of&nbsp; alternative bonusses.&nbsp; (Primal characters have +1hp/level, and&nbsp; Divine&nbsp; characters get an Encounter Power called Channel Divinity;&nbsp; Arcane get a&nbsp; grab bag that's different class by class).Strikers&nbsp; as a general rule get +d6 damage/tier over non-strikers with&nbsp; roughly the&nbsp; same powers.&nbsp; Sometimes this is expressed as +[Secondary&nbsp; Stat]+[level&nbsp; based modifier].&nbsp; It works out at about the same.The big&nbsp; difference comes at higher levels with leveraging feats;&nbsp; Defenders are&nbsp; normally taking a pounding so they get feats to help them&nbsp; survive,&nbsp; whereas Strikers go for damage feats to help them kill things&nbsp; faster.The PHB Paladin is too weak to be fit for purpose.&nbsp; There just isn't&nbsp;&nbsp; enough power behind their challenge (and from memory there is no&nbsp;&nbsp; Strength-based Level 9 daily).&nbsp; Divine Power gave Paladins some not so&nbsp;&nbsp; stealthy buffs - the main one for Charisma-paladins involves spraying&nbsp;&nbsp; marks everywhere.&nbsp; A second level Charismadin is quite capable&nbsp;&nbsp; of marking everyone in close burst 3 two turns in a row just using&nbsp;&nbsp; Encounter powers.Except that it didn't do this.&nbsp; A friend and I have a&nbsp; running joke that&nbsp; no matter which official role we pick all her&nbsp; characters are strikers&nbsp; and all mine are controllers.As a matter of fact the <a href="http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/85727/Leverage-Roleplaying-Game" target="_blank">official Leverage RPG</a>&nbsp;&nbsp; is class based with the classes being Hitter, Hacker, Grifter,&nbsp;&nbsp; Mastermind, and Thief.&nbsp; And it's an excellent game that plays very&nbsp;&nbsp; differently from D&amp;D4e combat is like running with a big budget and&nbsp; excellent Sfx for your&nbsp; film.&nbsp; If you run All Combat All The Time then&nbsp; you end up with&nbsp; something resembling a Michael Bay movie.&nbsp; You're there&nbsp; for the big&nbsp; explosions.&nbsp; 4E is a much better game if you treat it more&nbsp; like Raiders of the Lost Ark&nbsp; - yes you've a nice special&nbsp; effects budget, but the game is about the&nbsp; adventure rather than seeing&nbsp; what the Sfx department can do as a visual&nbsp; spectacle.&nbsp; Just&nbsp; because the Sfx department is very good doesn't mean you should&nbsp; base the&nbsp; whole film round Sfx.&nbsp; 4E also (once we got over the first&nbsp; draft skill&nbsp; challenge rules that were published in 2008 and started&nbsp; using either the&nbsp; 2009 or 2010 rules) provides a much smoother and&nbsp; better experience than&nbsp; any other version of D&amp;D where skills are&nbsp; relevant.&nbsp; You have big&nbsp; but not absurd differences in skill level (4E&nbsp; was doing Bounded Accuracy&nbsp; before 5E was thought of) combined with an&nbsp; ability to go above and&nbsp; beyond normal abilities through sheer skill in a&nbsp; way that no other&nbsp; edition can.&nbsp; A second level rogue who chooses the&nbsp; right encounter power&nbsp; can 1/scene manage to pickpocket with a brush&nbsp; pass (making a thievery&nbsp; check as a minor action - I think the power is&nbsp; called Deft Hands) so&nbsp; they barely appear to even break step as they&nbsp; walk through the crowd.&nbsp;&nbsp; Also you can't often use magic to make skill&nbsp; irrelevant.And 4e doesn't do logistical play that well - but it does do extended pressure a la Die Hard extremely well.&nbsp; Deny the PCs their extended rests!So&nbsp; your tools out of combat are a bit better for an action adventure.&nbsp;&nbsp; If&nbsp; you leave the Sfx department where it belongs (supporting the film&nbsp;&nbsp; rather than being the de facto stars of the film) 4E works really well.&nbsp; &nbsp; If not &quot;it is a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury,&nbsp;&nbsp; signifying nothing.&quot;&nbsp; Sfx and combat are meaningless without making sure&nbsp; they signify things (or you want to play a board game), and you seldom&nbsp; get the significance in the middle of combat.&nbsp; But you sure get a lot of&nbsp; sound and fury which if you already have investment increases them.Or&nbsp;&nbsp; to put things another way, 4e combat is like top quality home made ice cream.&nbsp; It&nbsp; tastes delicious (if you don't let it melt by taking too long) but&nbsp; try&nbsp; and replace a full meal with it and you'll be full, and possibly sick.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6308771, member: 87792"] And then you're taking -2 to hit the person who's not a fighter, meaning that they are about as hard to hit and the fighter isn't [I]that[/I] much tougher than whoever you're actually attacking. In terms of approximate value, squishies (Wizards, Sorcerors, Invokers) get 4hp/level, strikers and leaders get 5hp/level, and Defenders get 6hp/level. (There are exceptions - for example the warden gets 7). A level 1 squishy has an AC of 13-16, a striker or leader 16-17, and a defender 17-20. Martial characters (except the PHB Ranger and Warlord (and Executioner)) all get +1 to attack one way or another over non-martial characters, although the fighter can trade this out for a couple of alternative bonusses. (Primal characters have +1hp/level, and Divine characters get an Encounter Power called Channel Divinity; Arcane get a grab bag that's different class by class). Strikers as a general rule get +d6 damage/tier over non-strikers with roughly the same powers. Sometimes this is expressed as +[Secondary Stat]+[level based modifier]. It works out at about the same. The big difference comes at higher levels with leveraging feats; Defenders are normally taking a pounding so they get feats to help them survive, whereas Strikers go for damage feats to help them kill things faster. The PHB Paladin is too weak to be fit for purpose. There just isn't enough power behind their challenge (and from memory there is no Strength-based Level 9 daily). Divine Power gave Paladins some not so stealthy buffs - the main one for Charisma-paladins involves spraying marks [I]everywhere[/I]. A second level Charismadin is quite capable of marking everyone in close burst 3 two turns in a row just using Encounter powers. Except that it didn't do this. A friend and I have a running joke that no matter which official role we pick all her characters are strikers and all mine are controllers. As a matter of fact the [URL="http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/85727/Leverage-Roleplaying-Game"]official Leverage RPG[/URL] is class based with the classes being Hitter, Hacker, Grifter, Mastermind, and Thief. And it's an excellent game that plays very differently from D&D 4e combat is like running with a big budget and excellent Sfx for your film. If you run All Combat All The Time then you end up with something resembling a Michael Bay movie. You're there for the big explosions. 4E is a much better game if you treat it more like [I]Raiders of the Lost Ark[/I] - yes you've a nice special effects budget, but the game is about the adventure rather than seeing what the Sfx department can do as a visual spectacle. Just because the Sfx department is very good doesn't mean you should base the whole film round Sfx. 4E also (once we got over the first draft skill challenge rules that were published in 2008 and started using either the 2009 or 2010 rules) provides a much smoother and better experience than any other version of D&D where skills are relevant. You have big but not absurd differences in skill level (4E was doing Bounded Accuracy before 5E was thought of) combined with an ability to go above and beyond normal abilities through sheer skill in a way that no other edition can. A second level rogue who chooses the right encounter power can 1/scene manage to pickpocket with a brush pass (making a thievery check as a minor action - I think the power is called Deft Hands) so they barely appear to even break step as they walk through the crowd. Also you can't often use magic to make skill irrelevant. And 4e doesn't do logistical play that well - but it does do extended pressure a la [I]Die Hard[/I] extremely well. Deny the PCs their extended rests! So your tools out of combat are a bit better for an action adventure. If you leave the Sfx department where it belongs (supporting the film rather than being the de facto stars of the film) 4E works really well. If not "it is a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Sfx and combat are meaningless without making sure they signify things (or you want to play a board game), and you seldom get the significance in the middle of combat. But you sure get a lot of sound and fury which [I]if you already have[/I] [I]investment[/I] increases them. Or to put things another way, 4e combat is like top quality home made ice cream. It tastes delicious (if you don't let it melt by taking too long) but try and replace a full meal with it and you'll be full, and possibly sick. [/QUOTE]

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