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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6309132" data-attributes="member: 87792">If a striker and a well built defender are both within attack range and you attack the striker the defender will gut you like a fish.  Players approach a group of monsters trying to gut the healer and mage because monsters very seldom have Defenders.  Although best practice for PCs approaching a group of monsters would be to freeze out the Defender (not kill - immobilise will work) then take the healer and mage, then everyone before the Defender.  But if you can't freeze the defender out they become one of the top three targets, and sometimes the top one.Worthwhile Defenders who are being ignored outdamage Strikers.This is partly true.  The Controller's actual role is making the DM tear their hair out.  Simple as that.  If the DM isn't glaring at you at least every other encounter you aren't doing your job.  It's a hard role to play well - you need to be able to seize opportunities and tell the DM's monsters straight up that they aren't doing what they think they are.  Other than myself I know three other players IRL I would trust to play a controller that's more effective than a striker in the party would be, out of several dozen D&D players, and one of them would much rather make things go BOOM anyway.The way a well played controller works is a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail" target="_blank">Defeat in Detail</a>.  In a 4 vs 4 fight a Controller is doing their job properly if they can neutralise two of the enemy at the same time, turning the fight into 3 strikers vs 2 monsters followed by a second fight of 3 strikers vs 2 monsters.  If they don't regularly create an overlap a striker would be more useful.Leaders are panic buttons.  Two leaders is always too many - and a well coordinated group can get by without one and only a multiclass feat or two (that said in a striker heavy party a Warlord shouldn't go amiss).  A leader serves to blunt the enemy's focus fire.And Defenders should be more dangerous than strikers unless the enemy does what the Defender wants.Textbook mistaken when building Defenders.  Defenders should be built for Offence - they should just be tougher than the rest of the party.  But a lot depends how obliging the DM is in targetting the Defender.  Now that's just bad tactics.  The controller should prevent half the enemies from acting, leaving the other half of the enemies to fight the rest of the PCs without help.  As I said, defeat in detail.Gagh!  Pet hate.  And very bad tactics.On the other hand I've never seen that sort of gap in AC.  And a Defender who's sunk that much into defence is probably doing the equivalent of your "Not hitting until round 3" Rogue/Arcane Trickster.Let's look at it.Rogue with AC 26.  What level?Assume a Rogue with Dex at level 1 of 18 and leather armour.  AC 16.  Fairly standard baseline for a Rogue.At level 10, a Rogue should have +5 bonus to AC from level, +2 leather armour, and a further +1 from Dex.  AC 24 if they have nothing beyond the baseline and are using inherent bonusses.  Let's move them up to Level 12 (AC 25 now) and assume they've picked up one single extra bonus like +3 Armour, a Rhythm Blade in their offhand, that silly Mithral Chain Shirt from AV or something.  Level 12 for AC26 is very easy.So.  What will a fighter be in at level 12?AC 10.  Half level = AC 16.  +3 Scale -> AC 28.  Large Shield = AC 30.  This is the upper end of the equivalent of the AC 26 Rogue.  This is where the fighter should stop unless they are alongside a collection of remarkably tough defenders.  Adding more defence after this point is simply gilding the lily to the detriment of the fighter's ability to defend. And getting extra AC after +3 Scale and a Large Shield is actually pretty hard work.  (Of course if the fighter is having to defend Strikers like the Avenger that can look after themselves more AC is more justifiable).As for how hard the fighter hits, strikers add +1d6 damage/tier.  The rest of it is all on power choice.  Fighters get +1 to hit (which is worth a significant amount on its own) and have some very high damage powers (e.g. Rain of Steel).  Your fighters unless they are actually getting pounded should be going flat out for damaging powers and feats.It doesn't.  That's a crock.  I don't like non-lethal characters, but there are a number of ways to do them in 4e.  Including being the one who takes the enemies down and declaring you always knock them out.  Or playing a pacifist cleric - or an intimidatomancer.The problem is that combat is an all hands to the pumps situation.  It's a matter of immediate life and death.  If you are not contributing in combat you are the equivalent of someone on a sinking cruise liner who is sitting in your cabin because helping is not in your job description when the entire ship looks as if it is about to sink and drown the lot of you.  Yes, on a ship you can be the Captain, a navigator, an engineer, an entertainer, or any one of a dozen other roles.  But if you don't help out when the ship is threatening to sink you personally are breaking the social contract and endangering the ship.</blockquote>

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