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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6309234" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. The awesomeness of a highly skilled tactician in the controller role showing how he could break any plan was thrilling (and a bit frustrating as DM of course, but that's cool). It wasn't AT ALL about doing piddly area damage or especially about crowd control. It could be about making new terrain, or denying ground to the enemy that they needed in order to win, or just delaying the enemy by a round so your party reached its goal first. It was always rather pivotal. The only types of fights that controllers are not that great for are dull boring knock-downs with very little terrain or dynamic evolving situation at all. That's just poor encounter design though. Even then a skilled wizard will do quite well. Your example of an AoE in 4e seems quite wrong to me. THE CLASSIC is the old "Stinking Cloud, OK boys they're coming out, SHOVE 'EM BACK IN!" etc. Nothing is better than a persistent damaging zone, those things are tactical GOLD. Obviously if you have a group that just has no tactical sense of anything at all, then sure, all tactical goodness will just pass them by. THAT group should just avoid combat.</blockquote>