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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1765377" data-attributes="member: 5777">I am not sure if shifting really rates a 'good' note. If rage is good (which I personally think it is) then shifting is something well below that.Of course, the frightful shifting only applies when charging or attacking in shifted form. Along with that, pretty much any level 9 opponent will have a +3 or higher will save since a bad save gets bumped up every 3 levels <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Along with many creatures simply being immune (ok, many might be too strong, at higher levels it is many, at level 10 it is probably around a third).The shaken status itself gives creatures a -2 to attack rolls, saves, ability checks and skill checks. All around a nice little benefit, but with such a low dc I would expect most any real threat to be able to pass it a good portion of the time. At least it is a nice ability but not overpowering. Against a bunch of peons you can expect the fight to go that much easier, against real threats it will tend to not work. I like it overall.Limited amount of use per day (only works while shifted and attacking/charging) and grants a save, along with being fear based (I believe that shaken is always fear based, I dont have the book with me currently). Must watch out for those paladins and people with them <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Either guy could kill the other with a confirmed crit at this level really, with the appropriate modifier.Still, I think most everyone will agree that one is shifting either way, so cannot stack both shifting and shifting. Also, the guy is useing a rage and a shift at the same time, he wont be able to do this very often, and in order to be able to do it even a few times he'll have to put a bunch of feats into shifting feats, which are generally very lackluster.If he puts no more than the base amount of feats into shifting then he gets to do this once per day (+16 from bear from, +4 from rageing, generally for around 11 rounds). Pretty nice, but then he is done for the day after 11 rounds <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (not completely, but at this point he is inferior to the straight barb in many ways).Placing more feats into shifting means more shifting a day. But then, that means that they have spent even more feats to gain just about no benefit other than being able to get the massive bonus another time per day (1 more time for every two shifting feats).Sounds like a very rough and tumble sort of guy. The sad part is that the one ability might be too strong (for the bear, the tiger is probably still ok) but the rest of the class is pretty much worthless. Without the 5th level ability the class is weak.Any campaign with only one fight per day and that being the BBEG is already so far off of the core recomendations that there are literally dozens of huge problems that will pop up.With enough feats in shifting the weretouched master will be able to do his thing multiple times in a day. But then he is giving up a lot of other options to do so. The guy above, who is of course impressive, has power attack. Which means there goes one feat that didnt go towards shifting (which means that he has one less shift per day and one less round of duration for shifting, at least).Now, the bears str bonus is definately impressive. It may even be over the top. The problem is, how much do you have to take away from the guy before they can get a big bonus? and just how big should that bonus be?This class is only for shifters, they have to pay at least one feat towards shifting just to get in. After that, there are four pretty weak levels which dont do a whole lot (generally they boost shifting a little, which is then overridden when one wants to go for the big guns).I am in my office right now though, anyone care to write up a 20th level character for each? one barb, one weretouched? We all know that different classes have different power peaks at different levels, and 10th is likely the very best level there is for the weretouched. (a few other levels would be nice too, but there are two main points to start with, one at the beginning and one at the end)I would suggest sticking with tiger though, as that is what is under discussion here. The extra 4 points to str from the bear might just push him too far over the edge <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />If it works out to be too much even for the lion form then it will be easier at that point to see just how much it is going over by.As a preliminary, and to fix all of the forms, perhaps having a certain amount of stat bonuses based on the number of shifter feats taken and it differing by the creature. Such as, for each shifter feat you have then your creature form gets benefits as listed, I'll do a basic rundown off the top of my head: since 3 are going to be had just by getting to this point the start will be +2 str, +2 dex, +2 con. Now, for every shifter feat beyond this they all go up by +1. At level 20 this would mean a max of +9 to each of those stats.That is just a general idea though, lets see how the numbers work out for both of the comparisons <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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