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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TheSword" data-source="post: 9020904" data-attributes="member: 6879661">I totally agree with the whiff factor. It was probably the single biggest criticism of the first two editions. That and how some careers could easily invulnerable murder machines.The whiff factor was fixed with one pretty significant change which is why I think it took us a while to get our heads around the game. In the old system and in D&D etc you make a roll to hit which is a test against a fixed number and then you make a roll for damage based on the weapon. In WFRP they then got to make a Parry or Dodge which if successful meant your opponent ignored your hit. It meant you only had a chance of hitting which was reduced even further by giving your opponent a chance of ignoring your success - hence the whiff.WFRP 4e uses the concept of Success Levels. Basically you have a target number - let’s say your Melee Basic Weapon Skill is 60. You make a test against that target number. If you roll under it you pass the test and how much you pass (the success level) usually matters. With attacking in combat (and lots of other tests) this is opposed though. So your opponent also makes a Weapon Skill test to defend (or a dodge, or another appropriate skill). The person who hits, is the person who gets the most SLs not the person with the lowest roll.An example: You attack me and your Melee Basic skill is 60 and you roll 47 to hit. You have 2 SL’s (6 - 4 = 2 You count the 10’s digit to work out SLs). My Melee Basic skill is 50 and I roll 47 to hit. I have 1 SL (5 - 4 = 1). You have beaten me by 1 SL so you hit me even though I passed my WS test.Instead of rolling a separate die for damage that SL is added to you strength bonus typically (3 to 6) and the damage for that weapon (a sword is 4) and that forms the damage for that attack. Just as in previous editions Toughness and Location Armour then act as a soak. If I had rolled more SLs than you, then I would have successfully parried or dodged your attack.The whiff disappears because It’s possible for both attacker and defender to miss their WS check (roll higher than their WS) but to still win, because you get -1 SL for instance and I get -3 SLs which still beats me. Your attack was clumsy but my parry was worse. It means that it’s relative skill that makes a difference. Your opponents skill with a blade matters but you don’t find that your one successful hit in the 3 rounds was dodged.Don’t get me wrong you can still miss but there are ways of tipping the balance. Firstly you can crit (any double on a successful test) as either attack or defender which have some pretty spectacular effects. You can also fumble (double on a failed test) which can swing the game substantially. Secondly advantage kicks in - you get 1 point for every time you win an opposed test which can then be used to give you the edge in battle. Thirdly you can use fortune to reroll attacks or nudge the results by 1 SL.I think this  is the fundamental difference that Greylord’s table is probably finding an issue. Particularly when you add in the fact that different weapons have special rules that add on to this and talents can modify the results of tests. There are also quite a few circumstantial bonuses and penalties for outnumbering the foe, being surprised or prone etc, and conditions (similar to Pathfinder) that can adjust your target number.If you use a VTT like we did for the first sessions then this is all calculated for you, so you don’t have to think to hard about it. I’m confident we could play face to face now we’ve got used to that way of working. But then again we were institutionalized by 30+ Years of D&D/Pathfinder. Maybe players with more experience of 1st & 2nd edition WFRP would find it easier.I suspect this post will have either really put people off or reassured them I guess <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😂" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f602.png" title="Face with tears of joy    :joy:" data-shortname=":joy:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /></blockquote>

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