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Message: <blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 5081310" data-attributes="member: 3192">Thanks for the props. I do see older games as different game forms of RPGs rather than storytelling games. IMV, the worst way to view a roleplaying game is as a novel or other storymaking endeavor.  The point is not to create a narrative, but to present a reliable pattern to discover and from which the players can reason. A "cooperative problem solving group", as the players are in my game, can devise plans, set goals, communicate information learned or theorized about the world, review notes, and basically interact with each other without interference from a referee.  The referee is not force their plot on the players or improvisationally push them into whatever strategies of play they prefer.  Improvisation is never possible in an impartial role.  But when you give up your DM viking hat the game improves IME rather than degrades.  In fact, the game can be played both at and away from the table.  Certainly some things need to be shared with the referee (like item swapping) and all discussion should be cc'd in case an action sets off a rule (ever see the "I wish we had a..." wish spell rules in action?), but the referee is not the driver of play.  If the players argue for four hours at the table, then that is what happens.  As a cooperative game rather than a collaborative game, arguing is a poorer strategy, but without that option learning how to cooperate becomes a meaningless choice.  I do not see the role of an impartial referee as being in position to "force" anything.  That their actions do cause an emotive response is enjoyable, but it is not the type of fun the game is aimed at delivering.I agree the terms are poor to really describe with accuracy what's going on.  With the current redefinition of story to the point of meaninglessness (i.e. all human cognition and behavior are storytelling), I'm curious to what you call non-story games?  Do you mean RPGs where there is no course of action expected of the PCs?  Perhaps a game where no GM improvises or pushes other players to follow a path?</blockquote>

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