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<blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 7801928" data-attributes="member: 463">I think they designed it so a moderately well built 5-PC level 20 party without magic items, feats, or multiclassing could hopefully beat a CR 30 monster. Which is ok, but it means a single CR 24 monster like the ancient red dragon is only a real threat to a solo level 20 PC, unless you give it good spellcasting &amp; really nasty Lair actions. I used a huge ancient black dragon with a nasty lair action - grapple &amp; restrain mangrove swamp roots attack - vs Bill's Barbarian-20 dragonborn (no Feats or Multiclassing), &amp; he still kerbstomped it. Against a solo Monk-20, Rogue-20 or Champion Fighter-20 it might just about have been a real threat.Generally by far the best way to threaten a level 20 5e group is with an enemy 'party' of 3-6 CR 12-20 monsters, eg a squad of three pit fiends I think would be pretty nasty. Unfortunately the Legendary Action rules are too fiddly to use for more than one enemy at a time (unless they are identical &amp; act on same init), but a single Legendary with a Villain Squad of high CR underlings is good. Even a mated pair of adult dragons with a brood of young dragons could be a decent encounter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="S'mon, post: 7801928, member: 463"] I think they designed it so a moderately well built 5-PC level 20 party without magic items, feats, or multiclassing could hopefully beat a CR 30 monster. Which is ok, but it means a single CR 24 monster like the ancient red dragon is only a real threat to a solo level 20 PC, unless you give it good spellcasting & really nasty Lair actions. I used a huge ancient black dragon with a nasty lair action - grapple & restrain mangrove swamp roots attack - vs Bill's Barbarian-20 dragonborn (no Feats or Multiclassing), & he still kerbstomped it. Against a solo Monk-20, Rogue-20 or Champion Fighter-20 it might just about have been a real threat. Generally by far the best way to threaten a level 20 5e group is with an enemy 'party' of 3-6 CR 12-20 monsters, eg a squad of three pit fiends I think would be pretty nasty. Unfortunately the Legendary Action rules are too fiddly to use for more than one enemy at a time (unless they are identical & act on same init), but a single Legendary with a Villain Squad of high CR underlings is good. Even a mated pair of adult dragons with a brood of young dragons could be a decent encounter. [/QUOTE]

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