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Message: <blockquote data-quote="small pumpkin man" data-source="post: 4025090" data-attributes="member: 57910">You're both exagerating the bonus, and ignoring how powerful high level characters are, 9th level characters get +4 to all skills, only enough to get the wizard to +3 which isn't enough to scale any real cliff, yet in the 3.5 game previous to the current one, our 9th level (or was it 8th?) level Wizard had mass fly, allowing us to stage an ongoing flying battle against a green Dragon and then simply fly up a 500 ft well with no troubles the next day. Even without such 3.5 splatbook shenanigans, the idea that an 8th or 12th level party requires "imagination" to get up a normal cliff with no extenuating circumstances isn't worth considering.I mean, if they were in a rush, or being shot at, or say, the cliff was on fire (because everything's better with fire), or all three, then yes, sure, but then you're at the situation where you even though you might just be able to "tough it out" (maybe) obviously there's still a lot of room for imagination and tactics to help you.I guess my point is that while I do realize it breaks certain peoples feeling of realism, the system just doesn't effect low level play that much, by the time you're at the level where it really starts to make a difference (at least 12th) you're getting to the level where grim, gritty characters with flaws don't really fit with the power characters have (with the exception of flaws that are essentially character defining, like Raistlin's sickliness, or Moonglum's unlikableness, which can still be simulated with low stats), so having pretty much any 22nd level Balor killing, Tyrannosaurus Rex wrestling, Hero of the Land, Pelor's right hand man, the one and only Paladin not be able to climb a tree, or swim a river, (unless a lack of athletic ability is a specific character point) is a bad thing for actually simulating the kinds of stories where characters can do those thing. And the problem is with the 3.x system, this is not only possible, but the default, which requires going out of your way to change, that breaks my feeling of verisimilitude, enough that it reduces my involvement in the chraracter and the campaign.</blockquote>

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