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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceFractal" data-source="post: 3862656" data-attributes="member: 27704">Looking at the 4E previews, it seems that one of the constantly touted points is that Fun will be protected at all costs.  Save-or-die?  Not fun, out.   Being out of the fight?  Unfun, gone.  Now that's one thing when we're talking about the PCs "fun" being protected against the opponents, but does it go both ways?  And if so, what of the debuffer/controller characters?For instance, let's take a look at the new 3.5 Hold Person.  From the victim's perspective, it's much better - no more being taken out of the fight in one round.  From the caster's perspective, though, it's frankly lame.  I wouldn't cast it unless I knew the target had a truly mediocre Will save, and I was out of better spells.  Now that's ok ... for a single 2nd level spell.  Don't like it?  Then pick one of the many alternatives.  But if this applies to everything in 4E, it makes the entire Enchantment school a steaming pile of uselessness.  What if Dominate Person had a save every round?  Statistically, you couldn't hold control beyond two minutes, no matter how strong you were.Now secondly, let's take battlefield control.  While it has been mentioned that the Wizard is a "controller", I'm starting to be afraid that "controller" is a euphemism like "leader", and actually means something stupid like "area damage effects", or control-lite like Wall of Fire.  Because at it's heart, battlefield control is about ruining the enemy's fun.  You wanted to go attack the Cleric?  Too bad, now there's a wall in the way.  You wanted to charge in?  Well you can't, because there's tentacles blocking you.  You just wanted to do something useful?  Sorry about the fog and darkness and ice then, I guess you'll have to blunder around like a dolt.   And that's the point, that's what a real "controller" Wizard does.  He ruins the enemies' fun, for the benefit of the party.  And that's how the controller has fun. I guess what I'm saying is that fun is relative.  And also, that being paralyzed for a couple rounds or being blocked from your goal for a while isn't the same as "save or die", and people don't need to be "protected" from it.I'm not saying that they shouldn't overhaul effects, but keep in mind that the debuffing Wizards are people too - people who want their spells to be more than a trifling nuisance.</blockquote>

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