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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9618690" data-attributes="member: 6790260">It is worth noting that, while "Controller" isn't strictly its own role in WoW, it has its place--or at least it did up through when I stopped playing (late Cataclysm). That is, Mages could sheep, Hunters had a trap (sleep, maybe?), Rogues could Sap, I think Warlocks could "Banish" certain types of foes, etc. This CC wasn't strictly mandatory, but I remember running The Vortex Pinnacle and observing how significant it was to CC specific mobs in most packs.I do think you're correct that there's a strain of old-school MMORPG design that moves in the same direction, but I would argue that that old-school MMO design specifically came from D&D, rather than the other way around. A lot of the design lessons MMOs have learned over the years...pretty much do come from needing to shed excessive adherence to old-school D&D design elements that were not super well-liked.Now, conversely, many computer games today whether they are single-player or mulitplayer (particularly the one I play, FFXIV) are grappling with the reverse issue. They've smoothed out the experience so much that it becomes boring for anyone who isn't extremely casual, unless you do the bleeding-edge highly difficult content. Such "midcore" players have been left in the dust, even though they actually make up a sizable portion of the playerbase.The correct response is to find a midpoint, not to conclude "ah, so because Elden Ring sold well and people are complaining about things being too easy, obviously we must make everything a meatgrinder!" That's not productive. Instead, what is productive is finding a better mdipoint for the needs of current and future audiences. Finding where the dividing line between "frustrating difficulty" and "rewarding challenge" lies. Finding the opposite side's dividing line, between "digestible and approachable" and "nothing to learn and no value to be gained" as well. Working to fill the space between--approachable but rewarding challenges, digestible but still somewhat demanding experiences.Designers are beginning to realize that it's not bad to have a game that players need to learn to play. Unnecessary impediments and unproductive difficulty should be addressed! But removing everything that resists player action results in a bland, dull experience that is unfulfilling and far too easily dumped for the next all-too-easy experience.Correct, though I must beg your pardon for taking some of what Mearls says with a grain of salt. He has...done and said things which have eroded my trust in his judgment and, more importantly, his biases.Oh, most assuredly. There is no Fighter that doesn't have fairly strong ability to stand in the front and act as a meatshield. I disagree that strictness of math is even relevant here though, and would need to know what you mean by "so finely tuned"--being a Leader pretty much just boils down to "can heal a few times per combat, and can support allies in other ways, like with saving throws, condition removal, or granting attacks". Being a Defender pretty much just boils down to having the ability to punish those who choose to flaunt your marks, and being able to take a few more hits than others (and shrug off more attacks than others).Which is one of the reasons why it's pretty infuriating the way folks talk about 4e's roles. This was straight-up something WotC did all the time in 3e, including specific advice for ways to play the various classes along these lines. You always--in both 3e and 4e--have the ability to ignore your base features if you want, and you always have the ability to branch out or grow in new directions. Some of those directions are harder than others, e.g. a Fighter who wants to do Leader things is going to have a long road ahead of them, but that's no different in 5e (indeed, arguably worse, since 5e offers so little in the way of alternate options and the Battle Master is a piss-poor substitute for an actual Warlord with actual healing, something Mearls explicitly said we would get and then reneged upon, hence my comments above.)</blockquote>

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