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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6887165" data-attributes="member: 4937">- emphasis addedWell, I think there is some confusion somewhere.&nbsp; I don't mind if you take a bit of game slang or game terminology and give it your own definition as long as it is consistent, but I tend to balk when people start doing that with everyday ordinary words.&nbsp; In this case, I don't understand your definition of &quot;true drive&quot;.&nbsp; Drive is something I expect to find in the dictionary.&nbsp; Looking in the dictionary, the sense it is being used in these sentences would appear to be:1) an innate, biologically determined urge to attain a goal or satisfy a need.2) the determination and ambition of a person to achieve somethingNow, I grant you that the lust or gluttony could simply fall under #1, and therefore by &quot;true drive&quot; you mean #2 which is something slightly different.&nbsp; Ok, fine, but consider a character like Jay Gatsby from 'The Great Gatsby'.&nbsp; Here is a main defined by his drive to obtain financial success as the result of his rebuff at a younger age by a high class wealthy woman.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's hinted that he's a gangster and a bootlegger, and he's certainly not at all an ethical guy.&nbsp; Here is a guy with a driven, almost monomaniacal personality.&nbsp; But he's not at all lawful.&nbsp; He's got no code he's adhering to.&nbsp; He's got no authority figure he is submitting to.&nbsp; He's just this guy with an (unhealthy) obsession with a wealthy woman since his youth and with the things that she stands for - privilege, status, wealth, fame - which were denied to him in his youth.&nbsp;&nbsp; Jay Gatsby is Lawful?&nbsp; Jay Gatsby has the same basic beliefs on some level as The Batman?Drive in my opinion doesn't define alignment.&nbsp; Alignment is defined by what you are driven to do.&nbsp;&nbsp; Drive, urge, appetite, desire, need, dedication, determination, ambition, and motivation are universal attributes of pretty much any intelligent being.&nbsp; We differentiate them not by whether or not they have drive, but which drives that they cultivate and prioritize.&nbsp; To say that the character is motivated to do something doesn't say very much.&nbsp; Everything has motives.&nbsp; We have to know what motivates them to know much about them.&nbsp; I don't understand what you mean citing Kraven the Hunter either.&nbsp; Kraven is also a monomaniac, who is consumed with the ambition to prove himself the greatest hunter.&nbsp; That's not a biological drive or a primitive urge like gluttony or (sexual) lust.&nbsp; That's a sophisticated drive that counts as determination and ambition.&nbsp; Yet, I wouldn't cite Kraven as being someone who is trying to adhere to some higher code, or sees himself as subject to some higher authority, or who defines himself by his membership in some group.&nbsp; He's wholly self-interested and seeking purely personal glory for his own reasons that really make sense only to himself.&nbsp;&nbsp; So while I agree with you that Kraven is Chaotic, I don't understand how you can say he's lacking in &quot;true drive&quot;.Whatever definition I try to give to &quot;true drive&quot;, whether it's &quot;violation&quot; or &quot;will-power&quot; or whatever, it would appear to be something universal to all intelligent beings, and not something that divides them into 'lawful' or 'chaotic' groups.So one of us is confused, because I haven't a slightest idea what you are trying to say.&nbsp; Batman is driven.&nbsp; The Punisher is driven.&nbsp; Kraven is driven.&nbsp; Jay Gatsby is driven.&nbsp; But they are driven by different things to act in different ways.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6887165, member: 4937"] - emphasis added Well, I think there is some confusion somewhere. I don't mind if you take a bit of game slang or game terminology and give it your own definition as long as it is consistent, but I tend to balk when people start doing that with everyday ordinary words. In this case, I don't understand your definition of "true drive". Drive is something I expect to find in the dictionary. Looking in the dictionary, the sense it is being used in these sentences would appear to be: [indent]1) an innate, biologically determined urge to attain a goal or satisfy a need.[/indent] [indent]2) the determination and ambition of a person to achieve something[/indent] Now, I grant you that the lust or gluttony could simply fall under #1, and therefore by "true drive" you mean #2 which is something slightly different. Ok, fine, but consider a character like Jay Gatsby from 'The Great Gatsby'. Here is a main defined by his drive to obtain financial success as the result of his rebuff at a younger age by a high class wealthy woman. It's hinted that he's a gangster and a bootlegger, and he's certainly not at all an ethical guy. Here is a guy with a driven, almost monomaniacal personality. But he's not at all lawful. He's got no code he's adhering to. He's got no authority figure he is submitting to. He's just this guy with an (unhealthy) obsession with a wealthy woman since his youth and with the things that she stands for - privilege, status, wealth, fame - which were denied to him in his youth. Jay Gatsby is Lawful? Jay Gatsby has the same basic beliefs on some level as The Batman? Drive in my opinion doesn't define alignment. Alignment is defined by what you are driven to do. Drive, urge, appetite, desire, need, dedication, determination, ambition, and motivation are universal attributes of pretty much any intelligent being. We differentiate them not by whether or not they have drive, but which drives that they cultivate and prioritize. To say that the character is motivated to do something doesn't say very much. Everything has motives. We have to know what motivates them to know much about them. I don't understand what you mean citing Kraven the Hunter either. Kraven is also a monomaniac, who is consumed with the ambition to prove himself the greatest hunter. That's not a biological drive or a primitive urge like gluttony or (sexual) lust. That's a sophisticated drive that counts as determination and ambition. Yet, I wouldn't cite Kraven as being someone who is trying to adhere to some higher code, or sees himself as subject to some higher authority, or who defines himself by his membership in some group. He's wholly self-interested and seeking purely personal glory for his own reasons that really make sense only to himself. So while I agree with you that Kraven is Chaotic, I don't understand how you can say he's lacking in "true drive". Whatever definition I try to give to "true drive", whether it's "violation" or "will-power" or whatever, it would appear to be something universal to all intelligent beings, and not something that divides them into 'lawful' or 'chaotic' groups. So one of us is confused, because I haven't a slightest idea what you are trying to say. Batman is driven. The Punisher is driven. Kraven is driven. Jay Gatsby is driven. But they are driven by different things to act in different ways. [/QUOTE]

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