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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dragonblade" data-source="post: 1515866" data-attributes="member: 2804">I've used the Epic Level HB without any problems. The only thing I changed was I disallowed epic spells.Everything else is fine.I think the problem is people expected the epic level handbook to be something it is not, and the designers even partially expected it to be something its not.For example, a lot of people run much more low powered games than the default D&D rules imply. However, the ELH is designed with the standard D&D power increase in mind. Since low power loving DMs don't even feel comfortable running D&D much past level 12, of course they are not going to find any use out of the epic level handbook.Another thing is that some people seemed to expect it to have a more mythic feel. They wanted it to better simulate famous stories like the Odyssey. Even the designers tried to sort of push this feel when you read some sections of the ELH. The problem is the d20 system does not lend itself to this style of play. It is a system of numbers and tactics, not the abstract system that you would need for such games. As a result the feel doesn't work right. High level D&D is not mythic, it is superheroic (as in JLA or X-men). As a result the ELH rules only really work if you are willing to embrace the superheroic feel. Indeed, high level D&D in general, only works if you are willing to embrace this feel.Also, going back to my first point about running low powered campaigns, the ELH also only works in a world built from the beginning with epic level play in mind. You cannot use the ELH in a world where the players are the only epic level characters. Period. The game breaks down.Why? Because a world where the players are the only epic characters is not an epic world (in the D&D sense), it is a mythic world. And remember D&D rules do not handly mythic play well at all. There are no checks and balances to the PCs other than the occasional epic threat thrown in by the DM.This point has always frustrated me because so few people understand what I'm trying to say. Even the WotC designers failed to make the distinction between epic play and mythic play. You cannot use D&D rules for mythic play over an extended period of time. The game breaks down. You can use D&D rules for epic play BUT the campaign world has to built for it from the beginning. This means that the PCs cannot be the only epic characters in the game.For example, the best epic game I played in was SHARK's game. Unfortunately, he doesn't post here much anymore but his game was designed with epic level play in the from the very beginning. The average town guard in his world was  anywhere from 10-20 level. Major NPCs were always epic level, and the BBEG was an 80th level ancient vampire lord. His world scaled perfectly from 1st level to epic level without a problem. It was also grim and gritty in addition to being epic, but that is attributable to his DMing style.Unfortunately, a lot of DMs start their campaigns with the default NPC demographic level suggestions in the DMG. Or they want to have a grim and gritty feel and interpret that to equate low-level, even for major NPCs. They assume wrongly that they can always add ELH on later as an afterthought, if the campaign ever gets that high. This is a fatal mistake. And in my opinion, the single biggest reason why most people were unhappy with the epic level handbook. They expected a book of rules they can just tack on to their world and then keep playing their characters into epic levels without a problem.Well, it doesn't work that way.</blockquote>

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