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What are the “boring bits” to you?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9278036" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I absolutely expect that the GM <em>should</em> do so. I find most TTRPG GMs <em>do not</em> do so. Flat planes with, at best, some trees or very occasional man-made cover. The only game I have ever played that consistently featured meaningful terrain stuff was 4e D&D. And "theater of the mind" is the straight-up absolute death of terrain stuff. I've yet to meet a TOTM DM that can keep <em>and</em> communicate a mental map that good.</p><p></p><p>As for the former: Of course one should be concerned about what one "should" do. It is a <em>fight</em>. The objective is to <em>win</em>, whatever "winning" means in context (e.g. not all fights are about killing or even damaging anyone.) That's...literally the point of getting into a conflict, you expect to get a return. But short-circuiting the process with an unassailable automatic win is just as dull as saying, "I roll Persuasion to get the Duke to give us help <clatter> 19 plus Charisma plus skill bonus." Yes, strategy has a valuable place; but designing things so <em>unless</em> you aim for utterly overwhelming strategy, you are guaranteed to suffer overwhelming defeat sooner rather than later is dull. Without the crucible of tactics to actually have <em>sequential</em> decision-making that matters, strategy becomes a lot of talking and then an uneventful guaranteed win. That doesn't mean we should ignore or neglect rules design that rewards strategic behavior; rather, it means that strategy <em>alone</em> without the tactical side quickly loses its savor.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have yet to see small-unit tactics that can be so distilled that a flowchart can quickly and correctly identify the most useful behavior in any given moment--except in TTRPGs (especially those with a disdainful attitude toward tactics.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't enjoy gaming with people who intentionally try to make things worse for everyone else in the group.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Because it is a conflict, where there is risk of serious harm if partial or total defeat occurs. I cannot entirely eliminate that risk. Really, I wouldn't <em>want</em> to, hence my issues with "absolutely unequivocally win the fight before it ever starts" stuff. However, I can manage it, turn it to useful ends, reap rewards and minimize losses. That is the point of it being a <em>game</em>, and not merely a freeform improv session.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I genuinely feel like a bad person if I do that sort of thing. As in, it actively damages my ability to have fun when I try to do that. Guilt, frustration, dwelling on how whatever went wrong is my fault, etc., etc. I cannot enjoy playing in that way. It's just not compatible with my personality.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It keeps the brain engaged only by making the problem worse. I cannot bring myself to do that--and I <em>certainly</em> cannot bring myself to WANT to make everyone else dance to my tune because I caused a problem and then required everyone else solve it for me.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, that would be the roleplay I mentioned, which has nothing really to do with the combat at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p>My problem is, I find that the "good strategizing" is almost always little more than "exercise the most minimum form of common sense, and collect the absolute most basic information about the environment (that, for some reason, wasn't just explicitly told to you by the being who is your eyes and ears, aka the DM)."</p><p></p><p>It's very similar to the issue with attrition traps (from the "what are traps for" thread). That is, attrition traps bore me because the answer to them is either paperwork (roll dice, check numbers, alter resources if necessary, move on, nothing meaningful happens, just a slow creep of numbers going down because the DM decrees they go down) or a One Weird Trick that isn't actually that weird and can usually be observed by literally just a casual glance at the environment (or yet more paperwork like Perception checks).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure; but isn't that also what I had pointed out above, that just as overly-<em>long</em> combats are certainly a problem even for me, overly <em>short</em> combats are too? Neither simplicity nor speed is an unalloyed good.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, that's been pretty much my experience for each thing they described except the "info dumps" (I <em>love</em> lore, I'm totally happy to sit listening for hours). Inventory management? A dull frustrating game of hot-potato until you've made the annoying penalties go away. Precise tracking of every last ration and every single piece of ammunition? You'll just always make sure to buy yourself back up to umpteen-zillion every time you go back to town, to ensure you never, ever run out--unless the DM plays sillybuggers and takes your equipment away. A mountain of paperwork for a minute's verisimilitudinous "I eat my rations and sleep." Domain management means either "hand off all the actual <em>management</em> to NPCs who you hope won't betray you" or, per the above, <em>lots of paperwork</em>.</p><p></p><p>And every sandbox campaign I've ever considered playing, I immediately start asking myself, "Okay. What's the <em>point?</em> Why do I <em>care</em> what happens here, to these people?" I struggle greatly with pretty much every "build your own fun" game under the sun--the only "pure" such game I've enjoyed was Minecraft. Everything else, there IS a core story, you just don't have to focus on it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not at all. I'm talking about things like:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When the party Bard in the DW game I run went looking for a magic-infused musical instrument, and we spent probably about an hour discussing, haggling price, offering adventuring services, getting to know the merchant and their family and history, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When my buddy the Fighter blew 90% of the party's wealth commissioning the finest cloak money could buy for my paladin, because he felt indebted due to the lessons he'd learned from said paladin, and wanted something suiting the nobility and tenacity of the character</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When a different paladin I was playing in a sci-fantasy setting stumbled upon evidence that our enemies were a step ahead of us because he wanted to (personally) inspect the gear we'd requisitioned to make sure that it met his (shall we say, antiquated, or perhaps <em>antique</em>) standards</li> </ul><p>Roleplay shopping is where you make the process itself enjoyable as an exercise in roleplaying--and as a vehicle for delivering more gameplay, e.g. commissions, quests, overheard rumors, etc. It isn't wasted time, because you give the NPCs life and character, and leverage that life and character to bring about future scenes of interest and danger.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9278036, member: 6790260"] I absolutely expect that the GM [I]should[/I] do so. I find most TTRPG GMs [I]do not[/I] do so. Flat planes with, at best, some trees or very occasional man-made cover. The only game I have ever played that consistently featured meaningful terrain stuff was 4e D&D. And "theater of the mind" is the straight-up absolute death of terrain stuff. I've yet to meet a TOTM DM that can keep [I]and[/I] communicate a mental map that good. As for the former: Of course one should be concerned about what one "should" do. It is a [I]fight[/I]. The objective is to [I]win[/I], whatever "winning" means in context (e.g. not all fights are about killing or even damaging anyone.) That's...literally the point of getting into a conflict, you expect to get a return. But short-circuiting the process with an unassailable automatic win is just as dull as saying, "I roll Persuasion to get the Duke to give us help <clatter> 19 plus Charisma plus skill bonus." Yes, strategy has a valuable place; but designing things so [I]unless[/I] you aim for utterly overwhelming strategy, you are guaranteed to suffer overwhelming defeat sooner rather than later is dull. Without the crucible of tactics to actually have [I]sequential[/I] decision-making that matters, strategy becomes a lot of talking and then an uneventful guaranteed win. That doesn't mean we should ignore or neglect rules design that rewards strategic behavior; rather, it means that strategy [I]alone[/I] without the tactical side quickly loses its savor. I have yet to see small-unit tactics that can be so distilled that a flowchart can quickly and correctly identify the most useful behavior in any given moment--except in TTRPGs (especially those with a disdainful attitude toward tactics.) I don't enjoy gaming with people who intentionally try to make things worse for everyone else in the group. Because it is a conflict, where there is risk of serious harm if partial or total defeat occurs. I cannot entirely eliminate that risk. Really, I wouldn't [I]want[/I] to, hence my issues with "absolutely unequivocally win the fight before it ever starts" stuff. However, I can manage it, turn it to useful ends, reap rewards and minimize losses. That is the point of it being a [I]game[/I], and not merely a freeform improv session. I genuinely feel like a bad person if I do that sort of thing. As in, it actively damages my ability to have fun when I try to do that. Guilt, frustration, dwelling on how whatever went wrong is my fault, etc., etc. I cannot enjoy playing in that way. It's just not compatible with my personality. It keeps the brain engaged only by making the problem worse. I cannot bring myself to do that--and I [I]certainly[/I] cannot bring myself to WANT to make everyone else dance to my tune because I caused a problem and then required everyone else solve it for me. Well, that would be the roleplay I mentioned, which has nothing really to do with the combat at all. My problem is, I find that the "good strategizing" is almost always little more than "exercise the most minimum form of common sense, and collect the absolute most basic information about the environment (that, for some reason, wasn't just explicitly told to you by the being who is your eyes and ears, aka the DM)." It's very similar to the issue with attrition traps (from the "what are traps for" thread). That is, attrition traps bore me because the answer to them is either paperwork (roll dice, check numbers, alter resources if necessary, move on, nothing meaningful happens, just a slow creep of numbers going down because the DM decrees they go down) or a One Weird Trick that isn't actually that weird and can usually be observed by literally just a casual glance at the environment (or yet more paperwork like Perception checks). Sure; but isn't that also what I had pointed out above, that just as overly-[I]long[/I] combats are certainly a problem even for me, overly [I]short[/I] combats are too? Neither simplicity nor speed is an unalloyed good. I mean, that's been pretty much my experience for each thing they described except the "info dumps" (I [I]love[/I] lore, I'm totally happy to sit listening for hours). Inventory management? A dull frustrating game of hot-potato until you've made the annoying penalties go away. Precise tracking of every last ration and every single piece of ammunition? You'll just always make sure to buy yourself back up to umpteen-zillion every time you go back to town, to ensure you never, ever run out--unless the DM plays sillybuggers and takes your equipment away. A mountain of paperwork for a minute's verisimilitudinous "I eat my rations and sleep." Domain management means either "hand off all the actual [I]management[/I] to NPCs who you hope won't betray you" or, per the above, [I]lots of paperwork[/I]. And every sandbox campaign I've ever considered playing, I immediately start asking myself, "Okay. What's the [I]point?[/I] Why do I [I]care[/I] what happens here, to these people?" I struggle greatly with pretty much every "build your own fun" game under the sun--the only "pure" such game I've enjoyed was Minecraft. Everything else, there IS a core story, you just don't have to focus on it. Not at all. I'm talking about things like: [LIST] [*]When the party Bard in the DW game I run went looking for a magic-infused musical instrument, and we spent probably about an hour discussing, haggling price, offering adventuring services, getting to know the merchant and their family and history, etc. [*]When my buddy the Fighter blew 90% of the party's wealth commissioning the finest cloak money could buy for my paladin, because he felt indebted due to the lessons he'd learned from said paladin, and wanted something suiting the nobility and tenacity of the character [*]When a different paladin I was playing in a sci-fantasy setting stumbled upon evidence that our enemies were a step ahead of us because he wanted to (personally) inspect the gear we'd requisitioned to make sure that it met his (shall we say, antiquated, or perhaps [I]antique[/I]) standards [/LIST] Roleplay shopping is where you make the process itself enjoyable as an exercise in roleplaying--and as a vehicle for delivering more gameplay, e.g. commissions, quests, overheard rumors, etc. It isn't wasted time, because you give the NPCs life and character, and leverage that life and character to bring about future scenes of interest and danger. [/QUOTE]
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