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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kichwas" data-source="post: 9036821" data-attributes="member: 891">For the odds in PF2E to be impossible level of hopeless you need about an 18 to 20 level difference.A fighter at level 1 with base 10 stats has a +5 chance to hit. A fighter at level 20 with no armor has a base 37 AC.All you need is a +2 circumstance bonus to turn your best result into a fail - and that's important here. Because with a few circumstance bonuses you can get it so a natural 20 is only a failure. A natural 20 always pushes a result up 1. Making that failure a success. Now you have 5% of that army hitting the enemy with their arrows or something...This means that if you pit say... an army of 1000 warriors against a single level 20 monster. They will hurt it. They might even kill it. But the monster has the odds. It's a Kaiju level monster after all.The idea that the odds get impossible in PF2E is just not accurate. They get extremely difficult. And that is a different thing. It means that the entire army can swam that one tarasque that arrives on the planet - but it's a history making event (and check Golarian lore because that's an actual example from the lore).PF2E actually does always preserve that slim chance that a weaker opponent can win with numbers and tactics. 5E's bounded accuracy almost ensures they will even when plot wise they shouldn't. In 5E to win you just need to not run out of ants before you do enough damage. In Pf2E your army needs extreme tactics and favor of the gods like odds - but it's possible, just barely.And that remains a theme throughout. In 5E among equally matched opponents I get less need to use tactics so I just stand there and trade hits until a casino (the dice) picks a winner. In PF2E - I can turn an even fight in my favor by doing things to stack the modifiers, so I'm stupid if I just stand there trading blows. Every single +1 in PF2E has a marked impact on the odds - so my entire team needs to 'get in on the game' of shifting each other's odds.As a former MMO player I love this. It's like every fight is a raid boss - we need to work together with good tactics to win, and the GM can get the same thrill of seeing how we react to the tactics they use against us. The GM gets the thrill a 'boss designer' of a video game gets - every single fight. And the players get the thrill of an MMO raid team - every fight.In D&D... they just need to swarm it from enough sides that it can't kill them fast enough because they will be guarantied to win by numbers. No history gets made.For me... this seems like a win for PF2E's math, not for bounded accuracy.We should split this whole topic into it's thread at this point, or rename this thread "Bounded Accuracy vs. PF2E unbounded modifiers" or something...</blockquote>

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