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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Man in the Funny Hat" data-source="post: 3608681" data-attributes="member: 32740">Quite so.  In particular, there can be distinct, even drastic differences between someone whose gaming experience does not include 1E and thus knows only 2E as being "old school".  And if you skipped the 2E era altogether then your perspective is undoubtedly colored by that.  And then there's Diaglo.In my experience the DM has absolute effect upon this.  My own gaming experience trained me to think of backstory as making a few rolls on a random chart the DM made up, or using the old "Heroes of Legend" from Task Force/Flying Buffalo to generate it.  Yeah, we wrote up such things out of whole cloth as well but in all cases it was more of a personal exercise than a GAME requirement of some kind.This point needs to be emphasized.  It can be CRITICAL.  In 1E, or even OD&D, your character generation time was almost insignificant, whereas 3E was DESIGNED with the aspect of... what did they call it... Rules Mastery in mind.  The idea that you can play and have fun without knowing the rules inside-out, but that formerly extremely negative epithets like Rules Lawyer and Powergamer were going to be largely INCORPORATED into the rules structure, and even encouraged.  This affects the entire mindset of how to approach the game from both Role and Roll perspectives.Never stopped anyone from complaining about insta-death traps, effects, and encounters - but it WAS accepted as being something that just went with the game.Another exceptionally salient point.  3E was designed ostensibly to remove roadblocks to player "creativity".  The end effect, however, as is easily seen today, went just a bit too far and created an OVERdeveloped sense of player entitlement, and in particular - DM's who have been trained to think that they are NOT ALLOWED to set limits.Meanwhile, Old School is about characters as genuine archetypes.  Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief.  3E is about enabling players to eliminate ALL such dsitinctions as easily as possible, but without reinforcing the DM with the idea that HE is now allowed to say "no", rather than having "no" written into the rules.Many more good points followed, though I think the list would serve better as "Making 3E seem like 1E" than as applying "Old School" sensibilities to 3E campaigns.  Old School stylings are about RE-applying game elements that were removed, but that ADDED to the game, and which are remembered fondly and yearned for again.Start with this example.  It's no more or less old-schoold to go beyond the core books.  The differences are that in times past it was largely handled by the DM and players themselves, not with published rules, and that players of yore did NOT expect that playing character races and prestige classes outside the Core Rules would be their RIGHT - it would be something the DM allowed as a PRIVILEGE, or as something DISTINCTIVE about his campaign.A THOUSAND times Amen.  If there is ONE, single element of change between editions, that marks a break between Old School and New School it is this - magic as a common, readily available, commodity.  It also cements a distinction between PC's as unusual, uncommon, individuals - heroes beyond the pale - and PC's as only-slightly-better-equipped than hundreds, or THOUSANDS of NPC's just like them.Can we get another AMEN?This is not an Old School design issue - it's a perennial issue of DM skill and experience.  It's a roleplaying trap that DM's always have and always WILL fall into that has nothing to do with editions and only a problem with certain settings because DM's have NEVER been properly instructed on avoiding this pitfall.Advice on DMing has never been particularly stellar in the D&D rules.  That's forgiveable in that there have only been... five major versions of the game?  And throughout its history the issues of the DM's role at the table and matters of skill and style have been in constant flux, constant development.  But in the 3E era advice coming from WotC in this regard has, in my OWN perception, been shamefully deficient in favor of crunch that they can sell to players and DM's alike.  The change is easily seen in how so many players expect the DMs to accomodate them, and how so many pitfalls (like using NPC's for deus ex machina applications) that have been with us since the dawn of the game are STILL with us and STILL insufficiently addressed in the CORE BOOK where such advice should be - the DMG.  The emphasis is almost solely on mere mechanics, and it's the squishier areas [like alignment?] that remain the most common areas of disagreement and frequent stumbling blocks.</blockquote>

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