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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dragonblade" data-source="post: 5225278" data-attributes="member: 2804">So what is the essence of what makes D&D fun?I have played 3e, 3.5e/Pathfinder, and 4e and all the games have their own pros and cons from a design standpoint. But ever since going to 3e and beyond, my games have felt like they were missing something. Some intangible quality that I can't quite wrap my brain around that 1e and 2e seemed to possess that the modern incarnations of D&D seem to lack.I think back to some of the epic games I played back in my high school 1e/2e days, and I remember the best games were us doing something remarkable and unexpected. For example, in one memorable game, the party was about to be devoured by an ancient dragon (an incident we brought upon ourselves by trying to steal its treasure of our own volition) when one of our party made a last ditch survival effort by throwing our folding boat into the dragon's maw and shouting the command word. The DM ruled the boat expanded and ripped apart the dragon's throat killing it instantly. All of the players stood up and jumped around high fiving each other.This ability to pull off some insane stunt at the last minute doesn't seem possible in Pathfinder/4e. Everything is so balanced or restricted that crazy stunts like this won't work anymore. And I think thats a bit of a shame.Now, I'm willing to admit that nostalgia is a tinting my glasses rosy. As often as we had fun memorable moments gaming with the 1e or 2e rules, we also had campaigns break down over rules arguments with the DM, or because the players found some broken spell combo that had to be house ruled to prevent future abuse. So while 1e/2e offered more dramatic highs and lows over the course of our play, 3e/4e seems to offer a more steady play experience. I like not having the lows, but the problem is that I miss the highs.So my question to you, EN Worlders, is what are those intangibles that made those crazy game moments possible and how can we bring those elements back into D&D, whether you are playing Pathfinder or 4e?For example, digging through my memories of old games, one of the things that stands out is the element of surprise. Particularly the players being able to surprise the DM with some crazy tactic, spell, or item that they pull out of their rear to save the day. How could you bring this back? Perhaps as long as the players stick to the character builder for 4e games, or only Paizo products for Pathfinder, allow the players to make their characters in secret and not tell the DM what the party is playing in terms of mechanical bonuses and so on. Obviously the DM needs to know from an RP perspective.Another thing I thought of is that old school 1e/2e games tended to have more puzzles, traps, and other situations that required the players to think or talk their way through them and not simply make a Diplomacy or a Search roll to resolve. Challenge the players as opposed to the characters. A thread topic I remember seeing on EN World a couple of years ago.Anything else? Has anyone else had the same experience as me? How did you bring the magic of old school gaming back while playing with a modern ruleset? What are those intangible qualities that made your most memorable sessions so memorable and fun?</blockquote>

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