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<blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 5735268" data-attributes="member: 2205">I think it's still an open question how well they met that goal, though.I think they are, still, when you have to make the claim that a +8342 bonus vs. a target DC of 8352 makes the die roll of a d20 still relevant.&nbsp; That's true, I suppose, but the artificiality of the target DC is supremely inelegant.By gamist I mean the same artificiality.&nbsp; It's a goal that rubs the game design side of the hobby, ignores any other considerations, and in fact possibly has significant deleterious effects on some of them.&nbsp; For a person who approaches the game with a more narrative perspective, the fact that DCs are supposed to scale with bonuses so that the difficulty of accomplishing meaningful tasks at any given level remains the same regardless of bonus--the &quot;running to stand still&quot; as you call it--it is the blatant artificiality and the blatant, &quot;we're playing a game here&quot; is a major &quot;take you out of the moment&quot; event.I don't think the solution is necessarily that levels have to go, just that what it means to level up needs to change.&nbsp; What you describe for 4e seems to be a small, hesitant step in the right direction--although frankly, I hadn't heard that perspective from many who've played 4e yet, and I wonder still how well 4e did at accomplishing that goal--and I wonder still if even if it does, it's enough.&nbsp; Frankly, it may be that for a lot of folks who still like playing D&amp;D, &quot;the story of D&amp;D&quot; as you call it just isn't the story that they want to tell with D&amp;D.&nbsp; Paradoxical as that may appear to be.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Desdichado, post: 5735268, member: 2205"] I think it's still an open question how well they met that goal, though. I think they are, still, when you have to make the claim that a +8342 bonus vs. a target DC of 8352 makes the die roll of a d20 still relevant. That's true, I suppose, but the artificiality of the target DC is supremely inelegant. By gamist I mean the same artificiality. It's a goal that rubs the game design side of the hobby, ignores any other considerations, and in fact possibly has significant deleterious effects on some of them. For a person who approaches the game with a more narrative perspective, the fact that DCs are supposed to scale with bonuses so that the difficulty of accomplishing meaningful tasks at any given level remains the same regardless of bonus--the "running to stand still" as you call it--it is the blatant artificiality and the blatant, "we're playing a game here" is a major "take you out of the moment" event. I don't think the solution is necessarily that levels have to go, just that what it means to level up needs to change. What you describe for 4e seems to be a small, hesitant step in the right direction--although frankly, I hadn't heard that perspective from many who've played 4e yet, and I wonder still how well 4e did at accomplishing that goal--and I wonder still if even if it does, it's enough. Frankly, it may be that for a lot of folks who still like playing D&D, "the story of D&D" as you call it just isn't the story that they want to tell with D&D. Paradoxical as that may appear to be. [/QUOTE]

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