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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nergal Pendragon" data-source="post: 6502326" data-attributes="member: 6777649">I'm not scared for once. But... that's only because I've accepted that if it doesn't turn out the way I want, I have other games I can play. Anymore, I'm just not as invested in DnD as I once was. I have alternatives that can do the same thing, and I've heard there are alternatives for 4E coming out (13th Age is often cited as an example). So... if I want a 4E game, I don't need WotC for that. If I want a 3E game, I don't need WotC for that. And, I think 5E will benefit from this. WotC is a lot more cautious these days, and I'm noticing they put a lot more effort into what they do release. Yes, they're having some teething problems... but nowhere near the teething problems they had with 3E! If anything, they seem to be having a lot of bog-standard teething problems that quite a few RPGs have early on.So, this gives me hope... and if they fail to live up to that hope, I can go elsewhere to get my game on. I think you can too, and I hope that a lot more 4E-oriented games come out so that you keep having options. After all, 4E had a lot of potential to be the greatest edition yet. WotC failed to realize that potential but that doesn't mean someone else can't solve the problems they didn't. And, frankly, 4E players deserve that effort.The greater irony? My group loved the idea of powers that simply didn't go away when used in a day. The warlock was a favorite class because of it. That was the first thing they didn't like about 4E. They hated the way Numenera handles starting equipment, yet praise 5E's method. They absolutely loathed the idea of a standard array of scores with 3E, yet every single one of them has talked about how it makes things so much better with 5E. And they absolutely loath Vancian casting in Pathfinder, yet praise it in 5EEven I have to admit there are things I didn't like in other games that I do like in 5E. And, ultimately, I think it's the presentation that does it. Which is what I think was 4E's greatest failing; it had a lot of essential ideas that worked well, but the way they were presented turned a lot of off to the game. Knowing how to look, you can see those same ideas buried within 5E and the areas where 5E borrowed from other games. And even then, I think it's more an artifact of how the community was than the weaknesses of the edition that killed it; the weaknesses of 4E are not something that would have been difficult to overcome as the game progressed if it wasn't for the community having split as it did.I had a hard time explaining what a striker is to a few of my group. They didn't grasp the concept as easily due to what was, for them, alien terminology. The terminology change was probably the greatest barrier they had to deal with.And had fun! Some of the things from 4E I am sad to have missed include the idea of being able to face down entire armies of minions with a single stat block for them. That is one item I did hope would be carried over.Then most people would easily understand it. They could even have put in that they built a class with X role in mind, and then highlighted how to play it Y, Z and A to show the class can switch roles with ease. And, honestly, I wish they had released a free primary at around the time the PHB came out that did precisely that. It would be a very useful tool for helping 4E players transition, would introduce some ideas to people new to 5E, and would have allowed them to continue to use the terminology without making it as concrete as it had been before. Then, instead of topics like this, the OP would just have had to download a PDF and read through that. Make the PDF easy to print and entire groups could benefit from it and adapt quickly.Instead, when they abandoned 4E, they abandoned it hard. Which 4E players did not deserve.I think we both agree that should not be. And I'm hoping the end result of 5E is that it won't be a phenomenon known to the system.True. Looking at the combat system, I can see why they didn't keep bursts. Which is too bad, since bursts actually fit in perfectly with certain campaigns.So am I!From what I noticed, that tended to be more of a 3E thing, and even then groups could work around it. That said, I cannot disagree that casters had massively more options in any circumstance; magic simply gave them too much versatility. 5E seems to solve that by making it so that everyone has the option of using magic. So rather than try to eliminate the problem by correcting magic, they just give everyone magic so the problem is down to how players choose to build their classes.Now, to be honest, I don't see why 4E couldn't have accomplished it beyond WotC not figuring out how. And I am very sorry they didn't. I also think they should have put more effort into the edition.Rogues can choose Arcane Trickster and make the right spell selections for that and do it easily <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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