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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 6503673" data-attributes="member: 957">Ok, very cool.  It can often be a dead end when you have a conversation and run into the "all editions are the same" blinders.And here, respectfully, I'd offer that you are putting your own tastes and experiences in the place of absolutes and universal truths.If you are saying that 4E delivers the absolute height of the D&D experience that you have ever seen and FURTHER, it takes the things that you were forcing out of prior systems despite those systems lack of virtue in delivery, then I agree with you 100%.  But only with the caveat "for you".  The issue at hand is roles.  But there have been myriads issues of the minute.  And this could apply to any.What you see as failures (or at least sub-excellence) in prior editions, others see as working perfectly.  Or, others changed in completely different ways than you.  What you are describing as truths for how roles have been is, quite simply, not accurate to far more players than those for whom it is accurate.  Again, this is talking about how the game played at the table, not nit-picking the rulebooks.  People always have and always will ignore the parts of the book they didn't like and enhanced those they did.So just accept that the points you are making are great when you say they support your taste.  But they fall apart when you try to force them on others.  And this is particularly true for issues where the majority seem to go the other way.None of that makes one preference slightly more valid than the other.  I'm not trying to be slightly critical of taste.  Hell, when 2 people like thing A and 7 people like thing B, odds are A simply requires more appreciation.  I've said many times that 4E is an awesome game for delivering a specific play style.  And Bryon find's it very underwhelming.  I suppose.  I certainly loved the ideas and hated the implementation.  Maybe WotC wishes they had paid closer attention to the reaction beyond the initial release.</blockquote>

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