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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 6504986" data-attributes="member: 67338">right... so to explain how I picked it... 5th level is too low to rely on magic items so I went 16 start + 1 at 4th +4 for rageing... so techinly 23, but only even numbers matter so 22... not every time... but as often if not more so then the barbarian can rage... remember daily limit.nope... not buying it at all... anytime you faced any humoide (orc, goblin, kobold, human, elf, giant) you only needed to flank... not matter how many times they "Spot you" so the two character Barbarian and rogue run up and flank and bad guy can "Spot" the rogue all the way to sneak attack land....the barbrain that can only rage x times per day???You know I was glade when some ress to SA was removed (a lot of undead and constructs should not be immune) but I can't imagin a campaign where SA was so useless AND the player kept taking rogue levels...so just to make sure we are on the same page... by your standard if I made every class in 4e phb1, but did so with out referencing the role... even if they did the SAME things... that would mean no roles?!?!??well sure you did... X did Y better then me... now it could be luck you both guessed and he got lucky or skill he knew something you didn't, but at the end of the day he and you built characters and he did more damage.OK lets do basic mathfighter A has 16 str and +1 class bonus to hit and a great sword for 2d6 damageROgue B has 16 dex and rapier 1d8 damage and sneak attack 2d6Fighter C has 18 str and +1 class bonus to hit and a long sword for 1d8 damageROgue D has 18 dex and dagger 1d4 +1 bonus to hit class feature and skeak attack 2d6all 4 have 1w at wills 2w encounter and 3w daily (miss half) all but rouge B have a class adjustment to hit...fighterA swings 3w as 6d6+3             9-39Rogue B swings 3w as 3d8+3+2d6    8-39Fighter C swings 3w as 3d8+4          7-28Rogue D swings 3w as 3d4+2d6+4   9-28fighterA swings 2w as 4d6+3            7-27 Rogue B swings 2w as 2d8+3+2d6    7-31Fighter C swings 2w as 2d8+4           6-20Rogue D swings 2w as 2d4+2d6+4    8-24fighterA swings 1w as 2d6+3             5-15Rogue B swings 1w as 1d8+3+2d6    6-23Fighter C swings 1w as 1d8+4          5-12Rogue D swings 1w as 1d4+2d6+4   7-20so no basicly the rogue is not blowing the fighter out of the water with out feats or items or other things... I'm not sure if it is awesome yet... but it sure does have optional roles all over it... and not admidting it isn't helping anyone. It is mostly a striker (built like a slayer) with little things here and there... your choice of style and sub class matter, but the basic class is most defintly built to deliver damage...that is insane... you are literlay baseing everything on 1 time someone out damaged you and the fact that it did not happen again... and that boggles my mind. yes and it bothers me that they removed the terms just so people wont asscotiat the new game with the old... they were COMBAT ROLES... of course they...that is what they did illustrate the most direct way to use the class in combat... yes... all of the combat roles wher combat orientated, and yes lots of 4e detractors manipulated that into saying it wasn't a role playing game...great start... I don't entirely agree with the way they do the pillars, but it is close... and a big improvement over 3e and 4e in that way... but has nothing to do directly with roles...since roles only fit 1 of those lillars.I agree that is not what we are talking about... atleast not directly...so you don't belive that any class was built with a function in mind for how it would be used? Sneak attack is just "Hey something here" and Rangers getting a spell that functions like there 4e mark, and Warlocks getting one like there 4e curse (nothing like that in 3e) are not hidden bits at all...yes and no... it is a different approach then some classes had recived before, but one that mirrors other classes...</blockquote>

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