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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 6506112" data-attributes="member: 67338">the problem is when I say "YEs X exists, I have seen it" and the response is "No X never existed." and we go around and around and around with basically this... how about a 60/40 split... I belive and have brought my experience and evidence that there were unofficle roles through out the history of the game, and it has gone by other names and influenced other games even, but never before 4e were they nailed down... what 4e did (for good or ill) was be upfront and say Here this is what we are doing X and Y... 5e took some of it, and hide it behind a curtain and then tried to pretend 4e never happened. yea, that and people (myself included) have gotten very personally invested in stating our cases...</blockquote>