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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MechaPilot" data-source="post: 6506529" data-attributes="member: 82779">I don't entirely disagree with you; I bolded the parts where I agree with you.  However, the bulk of a 2e thief's skills are not combat skills (PP, OL, FART, MS, HIS, HN, CW, and RL), and the 4e roles are a combat-oriented construct.  To evaluate what any character's 4e role would be requires that one focus on those elements related to combat because that's what those roles focused on.With regard to the difficulty of getting to make Backstab attacks in 2e, it's really a strategy and DM adjudication issue given that it relies on the DM's subjective interpretation of what a given creature is aware of.  At the very least, a thief is probably getting in one good Backstab per fight.  The thief is also likely to act before an enemy (high Dex, plus a good weapon speed on daggers), and getting to deal damage first can be life and death stuff.Again, for the record, I wish 4e's roles had been implemented such that you could pick them separately from class.  I'd love to see the tactical combat module for 5e include mechanically supported roles with each character being able to choose a single role.</blockquote>