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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 6506839" data-attributes="member: 67338">Inless I am miss reading what people wrote, I was told that multi times in a 10 page span (about page 10-11 through 20something)wait this sounds like a good moderate statement... one I don't 100% agree with, but pretty close... I will conside that as much as roles have been around forever, 4e did "MORE DIRECTLY" use them.yup... my first 2e game, my 3.5 campaigns, and my 4e games all ran very similar (there were some diffrences)The biggest "negative" (and Im not sure that is the right word) I found was in a cursed (out of game) campaign I have been trying to run since 1998... In 2e I started it but people and real life broke the game up, I tried to run it 3.0 a couple of years later and big out of game incident broke the game up. Then in 2006 I tried again and we did more or less get to an end point but it was very anti climatic TPK... When I tried to run it in 4e, too much of the story wasn't working, mainly because killing gods was too easy, warlords where too common, and mages didn't have the umph thye once did. (the main bad guy was a god killing soldier who lead an army and could solo high level casters... a big deal in 2e, or 3e, but just a epic level warlord in 4e) that is pretty much true of every edition though, and every game... D&D would suck to play a WoD game in, and gurps would not handle a D&D game much better. 4e changed things (some for good some for ill) but at the end of the day so did 3e, and even though I wasn't there I bet 2e did too. just quoteing this because it is perfect...MAn.... that was what I was hopeing for in 5e. Imagine a spectrum of 3-4 "key word" roles... so instead of 4e's Rogue=Martial Striker you would get Rogue=martial striker Scout, and the background con man makes you a face and this theme(or what ever) make you an X... then when you mix and match you can quickly look and see what you want. "Hey this is what would make my character play the way I want" it would be perfect for new players, but it would also help a lot of long time casual players.... it would also lessen some traps, yea you can build anything, but you get a big warning sign if you are going out there too far. right what we need to do is combine the two... and not nescaraly link them... If I want to play a Face do I have to be a striker? no of course not, but people see rogue with no lable and then don't understand why this big combat buff...heck after looking through the 4e books me and my friends are convinced that a multi class Bard (college of war) FIghter (Battle master) is hiding a lot of warlord in it.since I am pretty sure SKip is VERY old school, I doubt it is him pushing 4e... I don't know... I really think (atleast in my experience) that controller was by far the most hard to explain (becise it IS that straight jacket everyone fears) but defender was the biggest leap... wizard always had control (they also had everything else... swiss army win button) fighters being a defender was much more nebulase... if you liked and followed 4e you would know the bard was talked about a lot. agree or disagree with the roles, but bard was always a jack of all trades master of none. the idea of making him a leader in 4e was to focus him... it was the opposite of the controller/wizard thing by giving him one role to focus on you weren't taking away power, you were adding to it. man I want to give you a big hug for this... and that is why combat roles rock... a short hand to explain... can you switch it up, OF COURCE this is a roleplaying game... but a guid to help here was soo great.to go back to 3e (and other arguments) I remember people here and at WotC boards getting mad when people said things like "Fighters are great in my games, the character sheet just say's warblade." there was a lot of "But it isn't a fighter..."witch is another great plus to roles... "What do you want your character to do?" is easier to answer with Martial Striker...  and this is where people fall apart. "I want to be an archer, but not a ranger." if infact you made a new fantasy role playing game and named all the classes by power source and combat role, no one would say "I want to be a archer, but I don't want my class to be Ranged Martial Striker, I want it to be Melee Martial Defender."well waiting for my perfect edtion of D&D I have played some good ones, one great one...and one or two okish ones... I doubt 5r is going to be perfect, or the worst, but I would like it to be better then the ones that came before</blockquote>

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