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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 6507116" data-attributes="member: 957">And that's the problem.  Fans of the "4E way" seem completely incapable of seeing the disconnect.  And being incapable of seeing it, they are the incapable of accepting that anyone else sees it.In short "roles" in the modern 4e enhanced vernacular are not the same thing as the generic concept of roles which have always existed.Do you want to understand the other side?  Or do you just want to argue wording now?And yet no one every called the people who stuck with 2E "Haters".  A key difference.And, we go back to GO.Get over it.  A lot of people REALLY don't like 4E.  Saying so is not "hurtful or antagonizing".   I was there from the beginning.  From my confirmation bias perspective, there was a TON of "hurtful and antagonizing" things said against anyone who was critical of 4E in any way.  I'll even say that this statement is true without my perspective, it is just my perspective that makes those comments seems to so overwhelmingly drown out everything else.  So, yeah people get pissed off and start poking at each other.But you know what?  Your side is the side that NEEDS to be extra nice if you want to persuade anyone.  (too late now of course)At the end of the day 4E sucks rather badly at delivering the kind of game experience I want.  I can say all kinds of things about it.  I HAVE said all kinds of things about it.    And I've acknowledged over and over again for years that I completely accept that 4E is the best game EVER for a section of the community.  I have no slight issue with this.  When you say "this is an awesome thing", I don't say that is a slanderous lie.  I simply say "I'm glad it fits your taste. It does not fit mine."  It is very hard to find any 4E fan (then or holdouts now) who are willing to accept this mutual allowance for taste. [A very civil resolution in the past couple days not withstanding]  If you dislike something in 4E then you are a hater and you are expressing hurtful and antagonizing things.The ways roles work in 4E brings major changes to the table and I really dislike it.  I reject 4E for many reasons and this is on the list.  There were characters with roles in my 3E and PF games.  There are characters with roles in my 5E game happening tonight.  These "roles" do not have the gamist feel of 4E by any remote stretch.  None of that is the slightest slam against the awesomeness of the fun you have playing 4E.  Nor is a slam again the people playing Settlers of Catan down the street or actually getting exercise playing Ultimate Frisbee at the park.  Again this is talking past each other.  4E is the only edition to have roles in the strict gamist manner of that context.  My game tonight will have roles.  My game to night will most absolutely not have "4e roles".  I disagree.  Being clear why one group of people avoided a system because of something is every bit as productive as being clear why another group of people flocked to it.  Expressing dislike is still productive.  Telling people they should not tell you their opinion is not productive.</blockquote>

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