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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 6507142" data-attributes="member: 67338">I'm not all 4e players, so please don't group me I just said I don't see the disconnect, I do see that you skiped all the things about roles we agreed on (like party face) and went on with this. I also see that you don't at all accept what I see, well I am trying to work with you...ok... then lets go back to the roles in question... I did striker last time lets do leader this time.leaders basically buff and heal, they are a defensive combat role, and are based on the classic cleric. WHat role did cleric play in your generic concept pre 4e?at this point I don't know what I want, I was responding to you here though...I also never called someone who "just stuck with 3e" a hater either.. I did however when people came online to a 4e forurm, or in my face at a 4e game at a con to tell me or others that 4e sucked or that 4e wasn't D&D or that wotc is just one big money grab HATERS... see staying with 3e is hateing nothing. Going out of your way to argue about 4e IS hateing...100% agree. Saying I do not like 4e is not hurtful or antagonizing.let me go one further saying "I don't like 4e because of combat roles, and I don't use them in my game" is also not... as long as you are talking about your game and your preference it is fine... it is when you present your game as fact that can over ride someone elses game that it is.we have 2 sides, one says "I see X in my games," side 2 says "I have never seen it so it doesn't exsist" side one come back with "Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it isn't there, or else I would not have seen it." this can be handled with respect and point for counter point... or one side can declair victory by saying they factualy disproved the other, and/or by being insulting (saying someone only wants something they have said they do not).  me too, how ever I was very much the WotC target audience back then, because I had heavly house ruled everything 3.5, and was using more newer classes and less phb classes. When they wanted to sell a new edition I was ready for one... yup I remember that... I will disagree slitly... what drowned out everything else was BOTH side (especially once pathfinder came along) slining insults and complaints. yup just like this thread...I don't want to persuade anyone I just want to talk about the subject... you are free to end in the same place you begain or not... as long as you are polite and not dismissive or insulting. ok...same with me and pathfinder.  yup me and pathfinder and core 3.5 too yup same here just with pathfinder same page here same here wow... just wow...that is back to grouping and dismissive and border line insulting... it basicly comes down to "If your with THEM, then you don't count." there are plenty of 4e fans that are much MORE accepting then either you or I... nope... if you present your views in hurtful or antagonizing ways you are a hater... ok, feel free to ignore them in any game you play...I'm fine with that.great, maybe if you shared your thoughts on better ways to incorporate roles, or your thoughts on how to use them (since you did just say you use them just differently) we could turn this into a more positive thread. what makes a 3e role and a 2e role different from a 4e one? I agree expressing a dislike (in the form of an opionon) is fine, it is being disrespectful or dismissive of others that is not.</blockquote>

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