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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6509067" data-attributes="member: 42582">For brevity I've stopped here.At this level of abstraction we know almost nothing about how the game, or these characters, play.At this level of abstraction we could be playing a game like Conan or King Arthur, in which warriors dominate the action and magic-users are oracles and enchanters who (if antagonists) can expect to end up skewered on the end of a warrior's sword.Or we could be playing a game like traditonal D&D, in which if you want to take down a squad of orcs you're better off with a magic-user casting Sleep or Fireball than with a fighter, because of the way the action economy and AoE options are allocated between the classes.Or we could be playing Ars Magica, in which grogs are not feasible player characters, but are more a shared table resource.From your description, we also can't tell who will heal the injured: the fighter who is experienced in field medicion, the magic-user who conjures miracles, or (as is in fact the case in D&D) some other class altogether.The alternation of phrases doesn't mark any substantial difference.The abilities of a 4e PC define that character's role in the party. (Just as you say for 5e.)Those abilities are chosen from a menu that the designers authored, having a suite of functions in mind. The abilities in 5e were also authored by the designers, also having a suite of functions in mind.The interesting question is: what suite of functions did the designers have in mind? Given that the wizard spells in 5e overlap very heavily with the wizard spells in 4e - AoE damage, AoE debuff/condition-imposition (eg web, sleep, colour spray, etc) - I don't see the radical contrast.With fighters the contrast is more marked, because a 5e fighter can be built as an archer whereas a 4e fighter cannot be, at least until you get to the Slayer. (The archer warlord came a bit earlier.)I'm not talking about the flexibility of the system. There is a 4e fighter who can heal, too - it's called the Warlord.I'm talking about the versatility of a particular character, who - it has been said upthread - can adopt any role. I don't think a great weapon fighter in 5e can easily adopt the role of healer or AoE damage-dealer or condition-inflicter.The former. Because the claim was made upthread that any PC in 5e can adopt any role, and this is a difference from 4e.I don't see it. I see that some 5e fighters incline towards striking rather than defending. I can see that some 5e fighters can be built who straddle the two (as [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] has suggested upthread), although I think that this is reasonably feasible in 4e also (subject to limitations on effective bow attacks, especially once you get out of heroic tier).But I don't see a 5e fighter who can heal very significantly, nor who can deliver significant amounts of AoE damage.Claims have been made, upthread, that 4e PC buildng, and 4e PCs, are inflexible in a way that is not true for 5e; that 5e PCs can adopt any role depending on the mood of the player and the ingame situation.I don't think that these claims are true. There are interesting points of difference between 5e and 4e, but I don't think this is one of them.Some people think it is a huge design breakthrough, for instance, to write a game in which instead of a fighter class and a warlord class you have a single class with two distinct sub-classes. I think this is a mere difference of labels. It doesn't actually open up the range or variety of PCs that can be built, nor the versatility of any given PC in play. [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] gave an example of versatility in build upthread, which is hard to match in 4e: the fighter whose physical stats are split between STR, CON and DEX and who can therefore alternate between lighter armour and bow/scout and heavier armour and melee/defence. (The closest to this build in 5e would be a type of ranger build, I think, perhaps hybrid with fighter.)But that is not a character who can fulfill any role. For instance, it still has no signficant healing or AoE. (And I don't read [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] as having asserted otherwise.)</blockquote>

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