Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What are the Roles now?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6511913" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>They're not defender spells because they don't involve standing in the middle of a melee scrum, taking on all comers. Which is more-or-less what "defender" means in 4e. (For more elaboration on the 4e roles, see my post above this one.)</p><p></p><p>Arcane Lock is a defensive spell, in the sense that you can protect the party from attack by use of it. But it doesn't involve being a "defender" in the 4e sense of that role. In 4e Arcane Lock is a ritual, so available to a character of any class (but wizards, among others, start with the feat for free), but not able to be used in combat. There is a design reason for that, but it is orthogonal to the issue of role and rather goes to 4e's approach to scene-framing authority. (TL;DR - in 4e the GM has this, not the players.)</p><p></p><p>Hold Person, Web and Evard's Black Tentacles are all control effects in D&D parlance, and all appear on the 4e wizard's spell list. A very respectable argument could be made that a 4e defender is really just a species of controller, but for legacy reasons the game draws a distinction between characters who exercise control by putting their own bodies on the line in melee, and those who don't. Hold Person, Web, and EBT don't involve the wizard putting his/her own body on the line.</p><p></p><p>Wall of Force appears on the wizard's spell list in 4e - it is a control effect, not a defender one, for the same reasons as given in the previous paragraph. It is about degrading the enemy by controlling their position or, if used to surround them or box them in, by denying them actions.</p><p></p><p>Burning Hands is an odd one. As a straight damage dealer, by default it should be considered a striker effect. But because of the D&D legacy of wizards being both artillery and non-hit point targeting condition-imposers, characters labelled "controller" in 4e also get some straight AoE damage. Burning Hands is an example of this.</p><p></p><p>In other words, all the spells you named but one (Arcane Lock) appear on the 4e wizard spell list, who is labelled a controller, and all are, in 4e terms, control effects, with the arguable exception of Burning Hands which is grouped into the control category for the legacy reasons I've noted in this post and my post preceding it.</p><p></p><p>Prestidigitation is also a wizard ability in 4e, so its use for purposes of controlling would be no great surprise to a 4e player.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6511913, member: 42582"] They're not defender spells because they don't involve standing in the middle of a melee scrum, taking on all comers. Which is more-or-less what "defender" means in 4e. (For more elaboration on the 4e roles, see my post above this one.) Arcane Lock is a defensive spell, in the sense that you can protect the party from attack by use of it. But it doesn't involve being a "defender" in the 4e sense of that role. In 4e Arcane Lock is a ritual, so available to a character of any class (but wizards, among others, start with the feat for free), but not able to be used in combat. There is a design reason for that, but it is orthogonal to the issue of role and rather goes to 4e's approach to scene-framing authority. (TL;DR - in 4e the GM has this, not the players.) Hold Person, Web and Evard's Black Tentacles are all control effects in D&D parlance, and all appear on the 4e wizard's spell list. A very respectable argument could be made that a 4e defender is really just a species of controller, but for legacy reasons the game draws a distinction between characters who exercise control by putting their own bodies on the line in melee, and those who don't. Hold Person, Web, and EBT don't involve the wizard putting his/her own body on the line. Wall of Force appears on the wizard's spell list in 4e - it is a control effect, not a defender one, for the same reasons as given in the previous paragraph. It is about degrading the enemy by controlling their position or, if used to surround them or box them in, by denying them actions. Burning Hands is an odd one. As a straight damage dealer, by default it should be considered a striker effect. But because of the D&D legacy of wizards being both artillery and non-hit point targeting condition-imposers, characters labelled "controller" in 4e also get some straight AoE damage. Burning Hands is an example of this. In other words, all the spells you named but one (Arcane Lock) appear on the 4e wizard spell list, who is labelled a controller, and all are, in 4e terms, control effects, with the arguable exception of Burning Hands which is grouped into the control category for the legacy reasons I've noted in this post and my post preceding it. Prestidigitation is also a wizard ability in 4e, so its use for purposes of controlling would be no great surprise to a 4e player. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What are the Roles now?
Top