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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6511926" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't think any of this is controversial, with one possible exception - I think getting healing out of many PCs is very hard (though maybe you count giving them a backpack full of healing potions as a type of "special circumstance").But you're right that I'm talking about general effectiveness, not last-ditch-efforts under unusual circumstances.Because combats in 5e are mechanically shorter in duration than in 4e, it may be easier to achieve minimal effectiveness with last-ditch efforts because they don't have to last as long to count as minimally effective.For the reasons given in my post above this one, I don't agree about defender. But striker yes. Post-PHB2 and up until Essentials, a sorcerer was a better AoE striker than a wizard, but Essentials then opened up some options for wizards which allow very effective striking builds.The invoker in my 4e game plays a leader role as well as controller (not striker, though - his damage output is very low). Every time he uses a non-at-will attack, one of his allies get's free movement. Plus as an encounter power he has Tide of the First Storm, which slows enemies while carrying his allies to where they want to go. And as dailies he has Astral Step (AoE teleport) and Arcane Gate (short-duration gate between two points up to 200' apart).The sorcerer is a devastating AoE striker who also brings a lot of forced movement control, plus quite a bit of leader-like buffing. (And is probably the most mechanically optimised PC in the group.) He can defend if necessary (using Cloud of Darkness to effectively raise his AC by 5, and close attacks or an at-will powered-up slash with his dagger) but isn't as good at that as he once was: for a while he was a multi-classed monk who would use "drow-jutsu" to lock down enemies within the Cloud and then blast them with close fire attacks; but since then he's given up the life of a ninja-drow for more bardic pursuits.</blockquote>

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