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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6520163" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I am not rejecting immersion - just the opposite. I am saying that what you call immersion is a good thing. Flow is a good thing. It just has a mainstream name and using the term "character immersion" for flow is needlessly confusing. What I am rejecting is the idea that your form of immersion is special to roleplaying. I've felt it roleplaying - and also playing competitive chess. What I haven't felt playing chess or wargaming is bleed or the form of immersion that leads to bleed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is literally the opposite of what I've said. I've said that people <em>outside</em> the tabletop RPG community share your mode of experience. And flow is a good thing. What I call character immersion on the other hand is tightly restricted to tabletop RPGers, LARPers, and Method and some Improv Actors. It is also in tension with the flow/fiero combination you are looking for (it's not opposed to it - you can have everything at once but it's trickier). Your case - that you can't find what you call Character Immersion with authoring powers, is based upon the presumption that your mode of experience is universal. Mine, that there are multiple ways and multiple ends is based on the opposite.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem is that you also cut the limits solipsistically. I can have a fiero/flow combination while having authoring power. Because there are implicit limits to the way I use player authoring (I've tried to explain them earlier in the thread - how it's power to describe that which you see as being there rather than power to create solutions). The limit case game here is, of course, <a href="http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/85727/Leverage-Roleplaying-Game" target="_blank">Leverage</a> with its flashback scenes where you can retroactively change the past as long as that which has been seen so far in the present remains unchanged and the changes you make are changes you would have had the ability to do (it's a game about a team of con artists and the flashback scenes give you the "Here's what's <em>really</em> going on" moments).</p><p></p><p>What I reject isn't your experience, it's where you seek to post hard limits on your experience. When you say you have experience of something you are telling the truth. When you say that something can <em>only</em> work a certain way then one single counter-example (which my experience provides) is sufficient to show you are wrong. You personally can not find flow in an RPG when you have player-authorship powers and responsibilities. This I accept. That because BryonD can not personally find flow when he has player authorship powers means that no human being that is, was, or ever will be is able to do so is something I dismiss as ridiculous. Especially because I personally can. It's not the authorship powers that are the problem. It's that they conflict with the way you (and many others) have obtained mastery. And there's nothing wrong with that until you start saying that there aren't other ways outside the one you've identified.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And if computer games weren't fun when you weren't experiencing flow <em>almost no one would ever play them</em>. Flow takes mastery. This I find an utterly un-compelling argument.</p><p></p><p>Edit: @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?6787650-emdw45" target="_blank">emdw45</a> I don't see an equivalence between associated mechanics and flow. I see flow as contingent on mastery. I see mastery as in part a function of experience - and most D&D players have most of their experience with largely what people would call associated mechanics.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6520163, member: 87792"] I am not rejecting immersion - just the opposite. I am saying that what you call immersion is a good thing. Flow is a good thing. It just has a mainstream name and using the term "character immersion" for flow is needlessly confusing. What I am rejecting is the idea that your form of immersion is special to roleplaying. I've felt it roleplaying - and also playing competitive chess. What I haven't felt playing chess or wargaming is bleed or the form of immersion that leads to bleed. This is literally the opposite of what I've said. I've said that people [I]outside[/I] the tabletop RPG community share your mode of experience. And flow is a good thing. What I call character immersion on the other hand is tightly restricted to tabletop RPGers, LARPers, and Method and some Improv Actors. It is also in tension with the flow/fiero combination you are looking for (it's not opposed to it - you can have everything at once but it's trickier). Your case - that you can't find what you call Character Immersion with authoring powers, is based upon the presumption that your mode of experience is universal. Mine, that there are multiple ways and multiple ends is based on the opposite. The problem is that you also cut the limits solipsistically. I can have a fiero/flow combination while having authoring power. Because there are implicit limits to the way I use player authoring (I've tried to explain them earlier in the thread - how it's power to describe that which you see as being there rather than power to create solutions). The limit case game here is, of course, [URL="http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/85727/Leverage-Roleplaying-Game"]Leverage[/URL] with its flashback scenes where you can retroactively change the past as long as that which has been seen so far in the present remains unchanged and the changes you make are changes you would have had the ability to do (it's a game about a team of con artists and the flashback scenes give you the "Here's what's [I]really[/I] going on" moments). What I reject isn't your experience, it's where you seek to post hard limits on your experience. When you say you have experience of something you are telling the truth. When you say that something can [I]only[/I] work a certain way then one single counter-example (which my experience provides) is sufficient to show you are wrong. You personally can not find flow in an RPG when you have player-authorship powers and responsibilities. This I accept. That because BryonD can not personally find flow when he has player authorship powers means that no human being that is, was, or ever will be is able to do so is something I dismiss as ridiculous. Especially because I personally can. It's not the authorship powers that are the problem. It's that they conflict with the way you (and many others) have obtained mastery. And there's nothing wrong with that until you start saying that there aren't other ways outside the one you've identified. And if computer games weren't fun when you weren't experiencing flow [I]almost no one would ever play them[/I]. Flow takes mastery. This I find an utterly un-compelling argument. Edit: @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?6787650-emdw45"]emdw45[/URL][COLOR=#3E3E3E] [/COLOR]I don't see an equivalence between associated mechanics and flow. I see flow as contingent on mastery. I see mastery as in part a function of experience - and most D&D players have most of their experience with largely what people would call associated mechanics. [/QUOTE]
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