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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6520953" data-attributes="member: 87792">Oh of course. Anything done badly doesn't work. The relevant questions are "How easy is it to do well?" and "What does it do when done well?" (And to me the answer is pretty easy and a lot).Lucky is worse than just about anything that people who call a disassociated mechanic object to because you can not associate spurts of luck. Most supposedly disassociated mechanics allow the player to choose how things work for them and that is an integral part of character building for people who care.This is a huge difference between the way 4e's Nentir Vale is written up and the way e.g. the Forgotten Realms is. The Nentir Vale/PoLand is written up as a mythological setting. Everyone knows what the character of the Raven Queen is, and some things she has done. But there aren't books focussing on her the way there are on Mystra as a direct manifestation.I'm sorry but you are not talking about anything I am saying here. I used to experience immersion in chess while playing chess. (I'm far too rusty for that to happen now). It is a well known phenomenon that with sufficient chess what skilled players see changes - grandmasters are literally so in tune with the game that <a href="http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GrandMasterEliminatesWrongMoves" target="_blank">they don't see bad moves</a>.  This is flow in action (and there will also be fiero). And it is exactly the same as what happens in an immersive RPG; your experience matches the bounds of the game. The bounds are wider and more interesting in an RPG than chess (and I gave up chess because to move to the next level up I'd need to learn reams of theory, defeating what was to me the fun of the game)No. There is an aspect of psychology and the theory of games that you are failing to grasp. And you keep denying this. In the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29" target="_blank">wikipedia entry for flow</a>, the word 'immersed' is right there in the first sentence.Straw man.I am assuming that you have accurately described your experience. If you have inaccurately described it, I apologise. The very words you use and description you use matches up to (a) my experience of immersion in D&D in multiple editions, (b) my experience of immersion in competitive chess, and (c) textbook descriptions of flow, right down to the very choice of words you use including the word "immersion".There is not one single way in which I reject your description of your experience. Literally the only thing I am rejecting is your ability to put limits on things you have not experienced. I am not rejecting your ability to have your experience. I am rejecting your ability to say "This is the only way you can experience immersion." You can say perfectly well that "This is the only way I personally have experienced immersion and I find this the best way to experience it." What you can not do is say "It is impossible to experience immersion any other way". Because that is not something you have experienced - by definition it is not something you can experience.You however are rejecting me saying "I have experienced immersion this way and that way".You are rejecting my experience point blank. I am rejecting your ability to place limits on the experiences of others.Indeed. So open your mind. Stop assuming that the way you have experienced specific emotional states are the only way to experience them.No. This is your misunderstanding of the situation.4e is no more the exact same thing as 5e as a Turkish Coffee is a mocha. But both are types of coffee. It's not nonsense to like one and dislike the other. It is, however, nonsense to object to a Turkish coffee on the grounds it has coffee in it and still like a mocha. "I don't like it" is fine. "I don't like it because it has coffee in it" is silly. "I don't like it because it tastes too strongly of coffee and I like the mix a mocha provides" would be an interesting position.Also this is a thread about what the roles are - in other words how things have changed from what many see as a distinguishing feature of 4e because it ground its coffee beans differently.Only ones that reject the presence of coffee in a mocha (or roles in D&D).Once more I'm continuing with the coffee analogy. Many people who like mochas don't drink Turkish coffee. The fact that this happens is proof of one thing. That people don't drink Turkish coffee routinely. This does not mean that all possible reasons for not liking Turkish coffee are valid - anyone who claims to want no coffee beans near their drink while drinking a mocha is clearly talking out of their hat. Anyone who thinks that Turkish Coffee is too concentrated or who likes the chocolaty flavour of mocha and how it blends with and takes the bitterness off the Turkish Coffee, or who just wants more liquid, is probably telling the truth.It's not a presumption of equivalence. It's a presumption that some parts are equivalent. And 4e fans (or at least this one) may read threads on other aspects of 5e design - but the objections only start coming out when people start objecting to hot water, ground coffee, caffeine, or any of a number of other things shared in common.If you think I'm speaking purely from a 4e perspective you haven't been reading this thread. (All my statements about bleed aren't from 4e, and I've brought up Leverage several times).And if you had been saying that "It is easier for to find immersion without the power to author some of the fiction because self regulating is annoying" then there wouldn't have been this argument. But that's not how you approached it. If you had said something like "I prefer to not do things like the bank example" again there wouldn't have been a problem. The problem is that you are saying that it is impossible to be immersed when you have the power to author fiction. This is simply untrue. You might find it impossible. I find it easier (and the example I've given about the bank illustrates why). If you can be immersed one way but not the other then this is a limit on you. If you can be immersed both ways but have a simple preference for one that's a different kettle of fish entirely.</blockquote>

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