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What are the Roles now?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6529626" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This is all very consistent with my experience.</p><p></p><p>In my experience with AD&D, there are things that a MU can do that a fighter cannot do (eg AoE damage). There are things that a fighter can reliably do that a thief or MU cannot do (eg survive extended periods in melee).</p><p></p><p>AD&D also exhibits "synergistic and unbounded" bonuses, most notably via magic items and (in UA and 2nd ed AD&D) weapon specialisation. By 5th level, a fighter will be able to do things in combat - typically melee combat - that a MU can't hope to (a gap of 5 in THACO in 1st ed, before STR and/or specialisation). And the converse is also true: a fighter cannot hope to take out a dozen orcs at range in a single round. For a 5th level MU that's fairly straightforward.</p><p></p><p>For what edition of D&D do you think these claims are true? Given that they're not true for any, what does addressing them have to do with showing anything about roles? Given that they're not true for 4e, are you saying that 4e doesn't have roles?</p><p></p><p>And for what edition of D&D are you denying that some PC builds do greater damage than others? In AD&D a fighter has a real choice to make between one-handed weapon and shield, or two-handed weapon (at first level you can't necessarily afford both kits, and that's before specialisation comes into play; at higher levels magic items also make the difference). In AD&D a thief or cleric, especially at mid- and upper levels, will have difficulty dealing out damage to the same extent as a fighter or MU.</p><p></p><p>I still don't know what you mean when you say "the mechanics make the game work one way".</p><p></p><p>You think there is some radical difference between a 4e rogue's sneak attack and the sneak attack of a 3E or 5e rouge. Or between a 4e wizard's low hit points and the low hit points of a 3E wizard or 5e wizard (not quite as lowin the latter version). But I don't know what this difference is.</p><p></p><p>A fighter in 4e can cower just as well as an AD&D fighter can. I don't know what mechanic you think makes a difference there either. Both characters have good hit chances, good damage capability and good hit points which, when they cower, they are not really putting to work.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6529626, member: 42582"] This is all very consistent with my experience. In my experience with AD&D, there are things that a MU can do that a fighter cannot do (eg AoE damage). There are things that a fighter can reliably do that a thief or MU cannot do (eg survive extended periods in melee). AD&D also exhibits "synergistic and unbounded" bonuses, most notably via magic items and (in UA and 2nd ed AD&D) weapon specialisation. By 5th level, a fighter will be able to do things in combat - typically melee combat - that a MU can't hope to (a gap of 5 in THACO in 1st ed, before STR and/or specialisation). And the converse is also true: a fighter cannot hope to take out a dozen orcs at range in a single round. For a 5th level MU that's fairly straightforward. For what edition of D&D do you think these claims are true? Given that they're not true for any, what does addressing them have to do with showing anything about roles? Given that they're not true for 4e, are you saying that 4e doesn't have roles? And for what edition of D&D are you denying that some PC builds do greater damage than others? In AD&D a fighter has a real choice to make between one-handed weapon and shield, or two-handed weapon (at first level you can't necessarily afford both kits, and that's before specialisation comes into play; at higher levels magic items also make the difference). In AD&D a thief or cleric, especially at mid- and upper levels, will have difficulty dealing out damage to the same extent as a fighter or MU. I still don't know what you mean when you say "the mechanics make the game work one way". You think there is some radical difference between a 4e rogue's sneak attack and the sneak attack of a 3E or 5e rouge. Or between a 4e wizard's low hit points and the low hit points of a 3E wizard or 5e wizard (not quite as lowin the latter version). But I don't know what this difference is. A fighter in 4e can cower just as well as an AD&D fighter can. I don't know what mechanic you think makes a difference there either. Both characters have good hit chances, good damage capability and good hit points which, when they cower, they are not really putting to work. [/QUOTE]
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