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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6540709" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Given your definitions of the terms here, it seems ironic that one of the common complaints about 4e was that Rituals cost too much in the way of fungible resources aka money. So there's definitely a certain degree of change in player attitude, beyond just what the edition did. Whether that's because the more logistic-heavy (as you've defined "logistics") players never got in in the first place, or that gaming culture at large has shifted over time, I doubt anyone can say.Something to remember: "Roles," as defined in 4e, are about combat stuff...but every character always has access to things that have nothing to do with combat. Skills are both powerful and broad (many things that used to require spells are now Arcana, Nature, or Religion checks, for example), the Rituals system absorbed a vast variety of the non-combat spells and made them into logistical concerns (as defined above). Things like Alarm, Gentle Repose, Arcane Mark, Unseen Servant, Tenser's Floating Disk, Knock, Traveller's Feast, Animal Friendship, etc. became Rituals (the first five are 1st-level; the next two are 4th level; Animal Friendship is 5th level). Anyone who (a) had the feat, (b) had a copy of the ritual and the necessary materials on hand, and (c) knew the appropriate skill, could cast that Ritual and (with a successful check) get it to work.Some characters still get a bit more than others. Wizards not only get Ritual Casting for free plus some free rituals (normally you have to pay to get a scroll or book with the ritual written on it so you can perform it), they also got Cantrips which had some impressive utility value. Rogues get extra skills, IIRC. And some characters get a bit less, and this is usually deplored by 4e fans as legacy BS: Fighters only get 3 skills (compared to the standard of 4), the lowest number of all classes. (Many people houserule this, either by saying all Fighters get one particular useful skill like Perception, or that they may choose one extra skill regardless of whether it's on their list or not. Not everyone does, of course, but it's probably among the most common 4e houserules.)So yeah. 4e's "roles" are about combat because that's what the designers decided players needed to have the most information about, and which they felt needed a clear systematic approach. Non-combat stuff isn't part of 4e's roles, not because it's absent, but because the designers did not feel that non-combat things needed to be systematic. Instead, non-combat mechanics are just assigned to classes in whatever way the designers felt was appropriate for the aesthetic and history of the class in question. Which, of course, means that some classes have a lot, some have a little, and most are somewhere in the middle.</blockquote>

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