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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6541706" data-attributes="member: 48965">With maxed Dex he's maybe 1 or 2 points behind a heavy armor user in the best armor (and he still uses stealth with no penalty and has a higher initiative bonus) with bounded accuracy overall 1 or 2 points is not really that much.  Also why can't he use a shield?  I've already shown the Dex based fighter is also a capable melee combatant through using finesse weapons... so he actually can use rapier and shield to do the equivalent damage of a longsword and board fighter.  Versatility the Str based two-hander just doesn't have...You still haven't shown me why these so called "needed" feats are actually needed for ranged combat to be effective?  They make special circumstances easier to cope with and boost the ranged fighter's basic competence (you know what feats are supposed to do) but you have failed to show (except again in special circumstances) why they are "needed".     As to the battlemaster's maneuvers... you will never have all of them... out of 16 you will have at most 9 and that is playing all the way to 20th level... which you claimed rarely happened so again I'm not seeing how this makes a ranged fighter weaker.The basic game... well I'll just be frank... who cares.  We all know it is a subset of the core rules designed to have the simplest options... so yeah it's limited, not sure if that's a revelation to anyone though.  You also can't make a battlemaster fighter, a spellsword and so on... In choosing to play the basic game you are choosing to play with a subset of the core rules...and thus a subset of the fighter class, more power to you but don't then turn around and say it's limited... That said I still believe you can create a competent Dex based/ranged fighter, because I don't agree that there are any necessary feats.You're not lagging behind melee fighters in effectiveness in combat (especially since a Dex based fighter can switch between the two and stay effective in both, again rapier and shield).  Can a Hunter ranger... push a combatant off a cliff with a ranged attack?  Can he attack as many times as a fighter of the same level with his bow?  Can he disarm a foe with a ranged attack, increase his chances to hit, or increase his damage (by 1d8/1d10 or 1d12 depending on level) while at the same time laying down cover fire for an ally to escape melee by using superiority dice  (these are all maneuvers a battlemaster can do with a ranged weapon)?  Again if all you're defining effectiveness in combat as is its' most simplistic expression of "does most damage"  the 2-hander will win... of course he's slower, getting hit more, can't affect anything on the other side of the battlefield, hide, snipe, etc.</blockquote>

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